Not just another CITH Thread...

[diggerdomer]

Yes, please clarify further. Under what circumstances are or were there married Roman Catholic clergy?

There have always been and still are married Roman Catholic clergy.

St. Peter was married.

Permanent deacons can be married.

As John Paul II allowed, married clergy from other Christian traditions have been allowed to enter the full communion of the Catholic Church and be ordained Catholic priests.

Does this help?

 

[diggerdomer]

AFAIK, it just states the cirumstances under which it can be done in the Roman rite.

Right. Just my point. For those of us who live in the U.S., the Church teaches (no indult) that communion on the tongue and communion in the hand are acceptable. If anyone questions this, they simply need to read the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, as approved by the Vatican for the U.S.

 

[diggerdomer]

Sure. Approve has positive connotations. Allow has neutral or negative ones. I approve of you giving me money but I’ll allow you to borrow some from me. I approve a child going to bed early but I’ll allow him to stay up just for tonight.

Saying ‘The Church approves CITH’ might lead readers, who don’t know its history, to think the Church is saying “CITH is great, go do it” or even “You should change over from COTT to CITH”.

Where does the Church ‘teach’ CITH? AFAIK, it just states the cirumstances under which it can be done in the Roman rite.

Anyone in the U.S. can read what the Church teaches by reading the GIRM. Clearly, reception of communion is allowed either on the tongue or in the hand. With no preference. As it should be.

Do you have a problem with what the Church teaches?

 

[diggerdomer]

Here is the OP. If you can’t provide anything other than “it’s approved” then you are off-topic. If you suggest CITH has been part of the Church’s tradition since day one please provide evidence. There have been multiple sources suggesting otherwise. Thanks.

Can you give us any reliable source that suggests communion on the tongue has been part of the Church’s tradition since day one? Please provide evidence. Thanks.

 

[Canto]

Right. Just my point. For those of us who live in the U.S., the Church teaches (no indult) that communion on the tongue and communion in the hand are acceptable. If anyone questions this, they simply need to read the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, as approved by the Vatican for the U.S.

But without the indult COTH would not be acceptable in the U.S. as it would breach the GIRM.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I shared on another thread an experience that I had while teaching Sacramental Preparation to kids. I taught the kids how to bow, genuflect and how to receive communion (COTT and CITH). I taught them the proper way to do both. Along with the gestures, the kids also had to learn the history behind all of these. They learned about the monks and friars. Being a Franciscan myself, I have to admit that I have an edge on the average catechist.

I’d love to use what you taught. Do you have it in writing somewhere?

 

[diggerdomer]

But without the indult COTH would not be acceptable in the U.S. as it would breach the GIRM.

Exactly the opposite to Church teaching.

The Church (vatican) approved the GIRM for the U.S. No indult. Read it for yourself: usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml

The GIRM is liturgical law. Approved by the Vatican.

Indults are favorable exceptions to law, given to a specific group for a specific time.

Read the GIRM that the Vatican approved for the U.S. Where is there any mention, by the Vatican, of an indult?

I really can’t believe you wrote what you posted. Have you read the GIRM as approved by the Vatican for the U.S.?

 

[Canto]

Exactly the opposite to Church teaching.

The Church (vatican) approved the GIRM for the U.S. No indult. Read it for yourself: usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml

The GIRM is liturgical law. Approved by the Vatican.

Indults are favorable exceptions to law, given to a specific group for a specific time.

Read the GIRM that the Vatican approved for the U.S. Where is there any mention, by the Vatican, of an indult?

I really can’t believe you wrote what you posted. Have you read the GIRM as approved by the Vatican for the U.S.?

The GIRM US says you can only recieve COTH if it is approved
So if it is not approved in the US you can’t recieve COTH
As it happens it is approved in the US - via an indult

Papal liturgist Monsignor Marini says…

…it is necessary not to forget that the distribution of Communion in the hand remains, even now, from the juridical standpoint, **an indult **from the universal law, conceded by the Holy See to those bishops conferences which requested it.

He said this in 2008, the GIRM is 2007. Even back in 1999 the CDWDS noted that COTH was an indult (Notitiae April 1999).

 

[ConstantineTG]

As I said, there is so much that needs to be done, that I personally do not spend time bothering my bishop on this point. For me, it does not have to be for you, it is very important to get the Catholics in my diocese to note that in 2009 we had 31,000 abortions within our territory. It is important to get the young and not so young, to understand the awe and mystery of the Eucharist. It is important to get the faithful to receive Holy Communion with reverence and the proper disposition. This takes a lot of time and energy.

Between five hours of the LOTH, almost five hours of community life, three hours of silence, and sleep, I have to preach and teach these other great moral and doctrinal truths to the faithful.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I wholeheartedly agree on this Bro. JR.

Notice in CAF most discussions surround around CITH, altar girls and EMHCs. Why don’t these same people so concerned about the Eucharist extend the same effort to Pro-Life and other charities? People will say, “but the Eucharist is Jesus Christ!” But do not forget that Jesus Christ is not only in the Eucharist, He also told us that He is in the least of our brethren. That drug addict on the street, those hungry and sick kids in third world countries, that homeless person with nothing to eat, those in prison wrongfully or rightfully convicted. We keep quoting John 6 where Jesus specifically said that we should eat His flesh and drink His blood, but we forget Matthew 25 when Jesus also told us that in the least of our brothers we find Him as well.

Reverence to the Eucharist must be matched with love and charity to our neighbors.

 

[Canto]

Why don’t these same people so concerned about the Eucharist extend the same effort to Pro-Life and other charities?

How do you know that they don’t?

 

[Layman]

There have always been and still are married Roman Catholic clergy.

St. Peter was married.

Permanent deacons can be married.

As John Paul II allowed, married clergy from other Christian traditions have been allowed to enter the full communion of the Catholic Church and be ordained Catholic priests.

Does this help?

No.

Reading it, you might think married Roman Catholic clergy are normal. I’m guessing St. Peter was married before he became a disciple. Aren’t married permanent deacons married before they become deacons? Aren’t clergy from other rites or denominations married before they are ordained in the RC rite?

My understanding is that a Roman Catholic priest or deacon cannot marry subsequent to ordination and that a married Roman Catholic man cannot be ordained at all.

 

[Layman]

Anyone in the U.S. can read what the Church teaches by reading the GIRM. Clearly, reception of communion is allowed either on the tongue or in the hand. With no preference. As it should be.

Do you have a problem with what the Church teaches?

I have a problem with CITH. ‘Teaches’ also implies approval. I think CITH was introduced for no good reason. I’ve yet to read a bishop come out and say why CITH should be done. So who’s teaching it?

There seems to be plenty of quotes pro-COTT and only one, from St. Cyril, pro-CITH. Assuming he was even aware of COTT, kneeling.

AFAIK, none one is teaching why CITH should be done instead of COTT. Like versus-populum, vernacular Masses and folksy hymns, it’s just something people are doing.

It would be nice not to feel one is an experimental subject and attend Masses done in a way where the personalities of the participants are obfuscated as much as possible. The TLM does this nicely.

 

[Ockham]

Vince/digger. You are off-topic. In the OP I listed ‘it’s approved’ as a given and not a subject for discussion. By requesting sources you have proven to be not reading the thread. It seems your only purpose here is to drag the thread down to a monotonous refrain of ‘it’s approved’ while ignoring the arguments and sources of others. Please provide a mature and intelligent argument with sources or find another thread to spend your time on. Thanks.

 

[ProVobis]

Why don’t these same people so concerned about the Eucharist extend the same effort to Pro-Life and other charities?

Not a valid comparison. Pro-life and these “other” charities are not only a Catholic thing. They’re a given for everyone, atheists included.

I myself have tried to argue that breaking of divine law is involved in the practice of CITH but have been challenged numerous times with the “CITH is approved and I’m obeying the Church” argument. But if you want to admit there is a higher risk of profanity in the practice of CITH, then we can have a more meaningful discussion.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Not a valid comparison. Pro-life and these “other” charities are not only a Catholic thing. They’re a given for everyone, atheists included.

I myself have tried to argue that breaking of divine law is involved in the practice of CITH but have been challenged numerous times with the “CITH is approved and I’m obeying the Church” argument. But if you want to admit there is a higher risk of profanity in the practice of CITH, then we can have a more meaningful discussion.

I’m replying to what Bro. JR has posted.

Besides, CITH existed in the early Church. If it violated divine law, they should have never allowed it in the first place.

 

[ConstantineTG]

How do you know that they don’t?

There are more “why is CITH wrong” threads than “let us support X charity” threads.

Also, I do not see the same people post in the Apologetics section when discussing such moral and social justice issues.

 

[ProVobis]

I’m replying to what Bro. JR has posted.

Besides, CITH existed in the early Church. If it violated divine law, they should have never allowed it in the first place.

Again you’re not following the spirit of the OF. Allowance of the CITH is a given. It’s what is meant by it and done with it that matters. Bro JR has demonstrated that it is possible to take a given discipline and convert it into the greater glory of God. How can we do that with the CITH? How can I do that without risking profanity?

 

[Ockham]

I’m replying to what Bro. JR has posted.

Besides, CITH existed in the early Church. If it violated divine law, they should have never allowed it in the first place.

If you read the history on this subject you’ll find the Church banned CITH to increase reverence and belief in the Real Presence. When Pope Paul VI ruled against CITH he stated those same reasons. Thirty years after CITH made its way into the GIRM we see a decline in reverence and belief in the Real Presence.

 

[ConstantineTG]

If you read the history on this subject you’ll find the Church banned CITH to increase reverence and belief in the Real Presence. When Pope Paul VI ruled against CITH he stated those same reasons. Thirty years after CITH made its way into the GIRM we see a decline in reverence and belief in the Real Presence.

Only the Roman Church issued such a ban. They also banned married clergy, does that mean married clergy is against divine law?

The Coptic, Ethiopian and East Assyrian (Chaldean) Churches have maintained the tradition of CITH from the beginning. (source: jstor.org/pss/1291745)

 

[ConstantineTG]

Again you’re not following the spirit of the OF. Allowance of the CITH is a given. It’s what is meant by it and done with it that matters. Bro JR has demonstrated that it is possible to take a given discipline and convert it into the greater glory of God. How can we do that with the CITH? How can I do that without risking profanity?

Anything has a risk of profanity, unless we are perfect beings living in a perfect world. COTT is not fool-proof you know.