Not just another CITH Thread...

[AlanFromWichita]

Thankfully lectors do not distrubte Communion. Unless they happen to be EMHCs as well. But our EMHCs have a parish-provided big bottle of disinfectant gel. And they use this in full view of everyone, which is a good thing, right before Communion.

I like that. I think I’ll suggest it to our pastor. Thank you.

 

[Ockham]

Pope Paul VI was concerned CITH would lead to a declining belief in Transubstantion. Thirty years later we have a declining belief in Transubstantiation. Just how is the Church better served? Why are leading clergy calling for a reconsideration of the practice? Why does the Pope not do it?

 

[Layman]

Right. We must take utmost care of the Host, but there is just something as too much, over analyzing the issue.

There’s also the symbolism. COTT, kneeling, from a priest shows the value we attach to the host and our inferiority to Him who we believe is present in it. Changing to letting laypeople hand it to other laypeople, standing up? It’s special bread. Don’t play with it, Johnny, just put it in your mouth.

EMHCs using disinfectant right before Communion? That’s ludicrous, compared with the simple, old practice. The sooner they disappear from the rite, the better.

 

[Layman]

They saw some parishes or diocese doing it. They examined if its overall beneficial for the Church and the salvation of souls to stretch the boundaries of the discipline. Then they made their decision.

Love to know how it’s beneficial.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Pope Paul VI was concerned CITH would lead to a declining belief in Transubstantion. Thirty years later we have a declining belief in Transubstantiation. Just how is the Church better served? Why are leading clergy calling for a reconsideration of the practice? Why does the Pope not do it?

The Church is better served because for the few who actively seek it, they can do so without going against the discipline of the Church.

We’ve had many discussions in the past about CITH and declining belief in the Real Presence. I wouldn’t readily blame CITH for it. Is it a contributor? Possibly. But declining belief not only in the Real Presence but in Christianity as a whole has been declining well before the indult was granted. So its too hasty a conclusion that its the fault of CITH

 

[ConstantineTG]

Love to know how it’s beneficial.

Beneficial for those who actively seek it that they are not violating the Church’s rule on discipline. This ensures more and more people are within the disciplines of the Church.

 

[Ockham]

The Church is better served because for the few who actively seek it, they can do so without going against the discipline of the Church.

We’ve had many discussions in the past about CITH and declining belief in the Real Presence. I wouldn’t readily blame CITH for it. Is it a contributor? Possibly. But declining belief not only in the Real Presence but in Christianity as a whole has been declining well before the indult was granted. So its too hasty a conclusion that its the fault of CITH

So we are better served because disobedient people had the rules changed to suit them?

“We’ve had many discussions…” How many discussions have you been in here?

By ‘hasty conclusion’ are you disputing Pope Paul VI’s prediction?

 

[ConstantineTG]

There’s also the symbolism. COTT, kneeling, from a priest shows the value we attach to the host and our inferiority to Him who we believe is present in it. Changing to letting laypeople hand it to other laypeople, standing up? It’s special bread. Don’t play with it, Johnny, just put it in your mouth.

To most people, all they care about is receiving Jesus Christ. They don’t overthink the gestures and symbolisms.

EMHCs using disinfectant right before Communion? That’s ludicrous, compared with the simple, old practice. The sooner they disappear from the rite, the better.

Why so? Its good hygene.

 

[ConstantineTG]

So we are better served because disobedient people had the rules changed to suit them?

I think we’re going around in a circle here. Because this has been addressed by Bro. JR’s post.

“We’ve had many discussions…” How many discussions have you been in here?

I’m not referring to this thread solely

By ‘hasty conclusion’ are you disputing Pope Paul VI’s prediction?

A prediction is a prediction. Its nothing more than an educated guess. Pope Paul VI didn’t have a vision, so what he predicted is nothing more than a guess.

 

[Layman]

To most people, all they care about is receiving Jesus Christ. They don’t overthink the gestures and symbolisms.

What is a Mass if not a rite full of gestures and symbolism?

Why so? Its good hygene.

Sure, if you had just been to the toilet. But before Communion, at the (Holy Sacrifice Of The Mass) Lords Supper?

Actually, hygeine rules are very strict in catering, so maybe it suits the ethos of the New Mass.

 

[Ockham]

I think we’re going around in a circle here. Because this has been addressed by Bro. JR’s post.

]

Hardly. You are asserting that it serves the greater good to reward disobedience.

I’m not referring to this thread solely

How many discussions have you been in here? You signed on two weeks ago.

A prediction is a prediction. Its nothing more than an educated guess. Pope Paul VI didn’t have a vision, so what he predicted is nothing more than a guess.

Duly noted. You don’t take a warning from a pope seriously.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hardly. You are asserting that it serves the greater good to reward disobedience.

No, it serves the greater good that more people are included in the Church. Christ did not come to condemn but to save. Why should the Church do the opposite?

How many discussions have you been in here? You signed on two weeks ago.

My post count speaks for itself.

Duly noted. You don’t take a warning from a pope seriously.

I would. But the difference between Pope Paul VI when he made that statement back then and us today is that we have historical fact. He’s merely speculating on the future. We’re looking back at what actually happened.

 

[ConstantineTG]

What is a Mass if not a rite full of gestures and symbolism?

Worship? Adoration? Celebration of the Eucharist and the Sacrifice?

Sure, if you had just been to the toilet. But before Communion, at the (Holy Sacrifice Of The Mass) Lords Supper?

Actually, hygeine rules are very strict in catering, so maybe it suits the ethos of the New Mass.

That practice actually began during the H1N1 outbreak. There’s no reason to stop a good practice just because there’s no immediate threat today.

 

[Ockham]

No, it serves the greater good that more people are included in the Church. Christ did not come to condemn but to save. Why should the Church do the opposite?

Interesting. Why doesn’t this philosophy apply to the SSPX?

Where does it stop? Will liturgical dancing get into the GIRM if enough parishes do it? Lots of people use the Orans Position during the Pater Noster. Should that be normalized too?

My post count speaks for itself.

As do other things.

I would. But the difference between Pope Paul VI when he made that statement back then and us today is that we have historical fact. He’s merely speculating on the future. We’re looking back at what actually happened.

The historical fact is belief in the Real Presence has declined since CITH. That’s what is happening.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Interesting. Why doesn’t this philosophy apply to the SSPX?

There was no Canon Law prohibiting CITH

Where does it stop? Will liturgical dancing get into the GIRM if enough parishes do it? Lots of people use the Orans Position during the Pater Noster. Should that be normalized too?

Its up to the Vatican to decide on that, not us. There’s a reason we’re not called to be leaders of the Church. Bishops have studied the faith and the history of the Church very well to know what can and cannot be done. Besides, CITH has been done in the past. Liturgical dancing hasn’t. So I’m fairly confident it won’t. But what do I know, I’m just a lay person abiding by the Church.

As do other things.

I’m not actively trying to hide anything you know.

The historical fact is belief in the Real Presence has declined since CITH. That’s what is happening.

Its coincidental. The world has gotten warmer since my child was born. Should we blame Global Warming on my child?

 

[Layman]

No, it serves the greater good that more people are included in the Church. Christ did not come to condemn but to save. Why should the Church do the opposite?

Are you saying that CITH was allowed because if it wasn’t, it’s adherents might have gone into schism? I missed that, in earlier posts.

 

[Ockham]

There was no Canon Law prohibiting CITH

So the pope can be disobeyed as long as the infraction is not against Canon Law?

Its up to the Vatican to decide on that, not us. There’s a reason we’re not called to be leaders of the Church. Bishops have studied the faith and the history of the Church very well to know what can and cannot be done. Besides, CITH has been done in the past. Liturgical dancing hasn’t. So I’m fairly confident it won’t. But what do I know, I’m just a lay person abiding by the Church.

Up to the Vatican or the bishops conferences?

CITH was ruled an abuse in the past yet crept into the modern GIRM. Supporters of liturgical dance have scriptural evidence to support their argument. The Church calls everyone to sainthood and gives every Catholic the duty to protect the faith.

I’m not actively trying to hide anything you know.

That’s clear.

Its coincidental. The world has gotten warmer since my child was born. Should we blame Global Warming on my child?

Hmm…is that a straw man or a red herring?

 

[Layman]

Worship? Adoration? Celebration of the Eucharist and the Sacrifice?

Errr… that could just as easily describe any religious gathering. Symbolism is central to a religious rite. It says what we are doing.

That practice actually began during the H1N1 outbreak. There’s no reason to stop a good practice just because there’s no immediate threat today.

Do it for another few years and you might get it into the rubrics: “Behold the sacred disinfectant!”

 

[ProVobis]

There is an old theory in laboratory work for a “successful” result. That is, first draw the curve, then plot the points. Another one: discard data that do not support the main hypothesis.

LOL. You bring back memories. Actually you write a computer program to plot random points to fit the standard deviation in your curve. Been there.

 

[MarkThompson]

Do it for another few years and you might get it into the rubrics: “Behold the sacred disinfectant!”

That would make it pretty much like the maniple, right?