O
Ockham
Guest
Wow. Well, at least this is new.
- Status
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
I’m sorry but you are putting words into my mouth. This is what I said:
Where in that statement did I say that COTT supporters said CITH was intrinsically evil? Its pretty clear, I said CITH was banned not because it it intrinsically evil, but as a disciplinary measure. Where is the allusion about other people?
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
If the Church believes that to be true then it will be reflected in Church Law. Maybe its in the works, maybe not. For the 1,000,000th time, the problem is bad Catechisis.
O
Ockham
Guest
Based on your latest posts I agree with have a problem with bad catechesis.
O
Oneofthewomen
Guest
Here is my answer for your question. It is from a thread that I started regarding the same topic.
The Sacraments: The Word of God at the Mercy of the Body, by Fr. Louis-Marie Chauvet
“It is in the very nature of the church to confess that the sacraments it celebrates in faith in the name of Jesus Christ have a spiritual efficacy called ‘grace,’ a beautiful term. The most forceful expression of this grace is no doubt that extremely sparing one given us in the dialogue of Eucharistic communion: to the statement, ‘The body of Christ’, Christians answer, not with he description of their feelings or the difficulties that their intellect might struggle with, but simply with the ‘amen’ of faith. This amen comes from the mouth and the heart, of course, but also from the whole body since it is manifested by the opening of the hands into which the pure gift of God is placed. The gratuitous communication of God with the believers, such is the salient point of the sacraments.”
And now I have a question for you.
If you lived in a skilled nusing facility (nursing home), and had no way to get to Mass every week, and only had a priest come once a month to say Mass (usually on a weekday), would you refuse to participate in a communion service, with lay people (men and women
)? Or would you be grateful that there are people who are willing and able to this for you? 
L
Layman
Guest
I don’t know what’s being said here. It’s a bit florid and uses overly-academic language. Can’t see any justification for changing to CITH in it.
Probably wouldn’t. We’re not obliged to attend Communion services. Also, we’re not obliged to receive Communion every week. I wouldn’t want to validate something I disagree with.And now I have a question for you.
If you lived in a skilled nusing facility (nursing home), and had no way to get to Mass every week, and only had a priest come once a month to say Mass (usually on a weekday), would you refuse to participate in a communion service, with lay people (men and women
This is an example, once again, of the exception being promoted to be the rule. Was X ever done anywhere, at any time, in any rite, in any circumstance, in the whole of the Catholic Church? Yes? Then it seems it’s fine for it to be added to your local Sunday Roman Catholic mass, said by secular clergy and attended by laypeople. And whatever was in place for hundreds of years, dumped.
Add all the post- 1940’s changes together and you have someting quite like Cranmer’s mass happening every Sunday in a Catholic church near you. But only in the Roman Catholic Rite. Amazing, in a way.
O
Ockham
Guest
Finally! Somebody found something illustrating the graces of CITH. Does Fr. Chauvet say if we’re better off?
I haven’t heard of this priest so typed his name into Google. Do you have any pictures of him wearing his priest’s collar?
L
Lormar
Guest
What have you (plural) accomplished in 61 pages?
L
Layman
Guest
Think of the children!
[heh heh, couldn’t resist it]
Well, we’ve had a heated debate, for one. And now we know the reasons for changing a Roman Catholic church over from COTT to CITH.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
Without reading what you quoted, CITH doesn’t have any graces. Neither has COTT. The graces are in the Eucharist itself.
O
otjm
Guest
No, antiquarianism is simply doing something because it is older. Doing something because Christ gave it to us that way is not within the definition of antiquarianism. but it is a nice try to be dismissive.
No it doesn’t. 2000 continual years of use make that the lie it is.
And, we loop back again to the old commentary of how weak sucks Rome amounts to, because they did not have the moral strength to stand up to the Dutch bishops. Nice try.
You don’t find it spiritually nourishing. That is fine, but you because of that do not have the moral suasion to presume that others have issues. Christ the King, Prophet and Priest is received in the Eucharist. Our parish believes it, and you wtill will not deal with the fact that others do not have the problems you ;ahve with it, but they follow the Magisterium, attend 24 hour Perpetual Adoration, work for an end to abortion, support a new Catholic school which is teaching the faith according to the Magisterium… sorry, but you simply duck the issue.
Nice try, though. Same old record, but you are persistent.
O
otjm
Guest
No, I don’t have any pictures of him wearing a priest’s collar, but I have seen several of Ratzinger in a suit and tie.
And doesn’t that just warm the cockles of your heart!
Any other barbs you wish to throw?
O
Ockham
Guest
Louis-Marie Chauvet seem like an interesting fellow. I don’t have time to read this right now but here’s an exerpt and the link. At first glance it seems Dr. Chauvet opposes the pope and St. Thomas Aquinas on the subject of the Eucharist. Take that for what you will.
The Instrumental Causality of the Sacraments
Thomas Aquinas and Louis-Marie Chauvet
by Bernhard Blankenhorn, OP
“One can find a similar trend in sacramental theology. For example, Louis-Marie Chauvent at the Institut Catholique in Paris seems to have attained a certain dominance in French sacramental theology, while the 1995 translation of his major work Symbol and Sacrament, which is heavily marked by Heidegger’s philosophy, has brought attention to this thought in the United States. Some of postmodern theology’s most distinguishing aspects include the insistence on the cultural and linguistic mediation of all thought and doctrine as well as a wide-scale rejection of classical metaphysics. The Church Fathers, scholastics, and contemporary theologians such as Hans Urs von Balthasar and Joseph Ratzinger (in his personal theology) are thus critiqued for haing violated the mystery of God by reducing him to a being or first cause, for having misunderstood being as presence, or for having interpreted the sacraments according to a human model of mechanical production…”
“Furthermore, Chauvet is opposing what is perhaps the best theological expression of a doctrine that appears to be quite central to Catholicism, that is, the belief that the sacraments cause grace. It will become clear that Chauvet’s critique of Aquinas inevitably targets patristic sacramentology as well.”
opwest.org/Archive/2006/200605/blankenhorn_article.pdf
The Instrumental Causality of the Sacraments
Thomas Aquinas and Louis-Marie Chauvet
by Bernhard Blankenhorn, OP
“One can find a similar trend in sacramental theology. For example, Louis-Marie Chauvent at the Institut Catholique in Paris seems to have attained a certain dominance in French sacramental theology, while the 1995 translation of his major work Symbol and Sacrament, which is heavily marked by Heidegger’s philosophy, has brought attention to this thought in the United States. Some of postmodern theology’s most distinguishing aspects include the insistence on the cultural and linguistic mediation of all thought and doctrine as well as a wide-scale rejection of classical metaphysics. The Church Fathers, scholastics, and contemporary theologians such as Hans Urs von Balthasar and Joseph Ratzinger (in his personal theology) are thus critiqued for haing violated the mystery of God by reducing him to a being or first cause, for having misunderstood being as presence, or for having interpreted the sacraments according to a human model of mechanical production…”
“Furthermore, Chauvet is opposing what is perhaps the best theological expression of a doctrine that appears to be quite central to Catholicism, that is, the belief that the sacraments cause grace. It will become clear that Chauvet’s critique of Aquinas inevitably targets patristic sacramentology as well.”
opwest.org/Archive/2006/200605/blankenhorn_article.pdf
O
Oneofthewomen
Guest
You did not ask for “justification” in the post I replied to, you asked how CITH was “spiritually enriching”, which is why I posted this passage (I will agree with you about the language- this was the hardest book to get through that semester, probably because it was originally written in French!
) Fr. Chauvet put into words exactly how I feel about receiving CITH with this-This amen comes from the mouth and the heart, of course, but also from the whole body since it is manifested by the opening of the hands into which the pure gift of God is placed. The gratuitous communication of God with the believers, such is the salient point of the sacraments."
I respect your opinions regarding CITH, however, the Church (at least my little corner of it
) does not share your opinion. And I really do not believe that CITH is the root of all the “bad fruit” that has come to be after VII. As it has been said, over and over, it is the lack of good catechesis. In my mind, saying that CITH is the cause of diminished belief in the Real Presence is akin to putting a band-aid on a bullet wound.Regarding not receiving communion at a communion service, again this is your right. However, being someone who works in one of these facilities, and is an EMHC to my residents and to others who are home-bound in my community, I take my sacred duties very seriously. I am doing exactly what Jesus asks of us in Matthew 25: 35-40~
*For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ *
If you have ever spent anytime in a facility such as the one where I work, you would see instantly that my residents are exactly “the least of my brethren” that Jesus talks about. And for many of them, I am the ***only connection ***they have to the faith that they love so much!
Again, I respect and honor your opinions and your right to have them (you and all who agree with you!). However, in the matter of CITH (at least here in the US, where I am), the Church has spoken, and until SHE changes her mind, I ask that I (and all who agree with my POV) are afforded the same respect.
DISCLAIMER: I am in no way saying “Layman” that you have not been respectful. This debate seems to bring out the worst in some people who think that others who do not share the same POV are somehow “less Catholic”.
P
ProVobis
Guest
10 pages if you’ve selected 100 posts per page.
Thanks for the clarification of the second person.
P
ProVobis
Guest
Bad catechisis is usually the reason the other side is wrong.
P
ProVobis
Guest
Doesn’t proper disposition to receive count? How can one be of proper disposition if his blood is boiling when he sees less than utmost respect to God?
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
What if he doesn’t see CITH as a less than utmost respect to God?
We can’t quantify one’s disposition, only God can be the judge of that. So we shouldn’t have a thread that goes for 62 pages (on default settings) arguing about someone’s disposition in receiving CITH.
I agree that disposition is important. There are people who receive COTT while living sinful and unrepentant lives. So I don’t know how COTT and CITH changes one’s disposition.
P
ProVobis
Guest
I’d be interested on the statistics on that one. On the surface, though, it appears that most who receive CITH are more likely to receive because everyone around them receives. But that’s my opinion. Many in other cultures (Polish OF, EF) do not receive.
L
Layman
Guest
How did Christ ‘give’ us CITH? CITH is assumed at the Last Supper, only. If Christ gave us CITH, why is/was COTT the norm in the RC rite?
I don’t think I said anything about ‘weak sucks’(?)
I asked how changing from COTT, kneeling, from a priest, to CITH, standing, from a laywoman, could be an improvement. How that could be ‘spiritually nourishing’ to the faithful in the main rite of the Roman Catholic Church. What’s the benefit?
**Bit weird, if you believe the Host is imbued with your God. **
- Status