Not just another masterbation question

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OLofMtCarmel

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I hope this is the right place.

I read about “sexless marriages”.

So what if :
  • a man accidentally discovers his wife masturbating
  • the marriage has been long term
  • husband remained chaste
  • wife doesn’t submit willfully in the marriage bed
  • there are no consequences since the woman is sterile
  • they have young children
  • mental illness is involved PTSD
How would such a person deal with the issue?
 
Talk to your wife about her issues. Get marriage counseling. See your priest. Pray. Consider separation if the wife is not receptive to change.
 
So, with children and mental illness at play, you’re recommendation is to seek separation if all else fails? I don’t think that advice is prudent. Let’s say the wife gets stressed really easy and suffers from PTSD, which is a major anxiety disorder. Priests would tell her that it’s not a spiritual matter for her but rather a health issue requiring treatment. You suggest that someone leave a spouse because they committed a mortal sin repeatedly. That’s not grounds for a annulment and because there are young children the clergy would suggest to at least stay in the marriage until the children grow up. That’s overly simplified.

I was looking for how the man should deal with the situation, which you suggested - talk with her. I noticed another similar thread after I posted this one. I might have been better to continue that one. But he has a unique situation in which his wife is not under the Catholic Church’s jurisdition to her knowledge or beliefs. The fact that she learned what the Catholic Church teaches doesn’t make her culpable for not believing it either. She may still believe the Catholic Church is pagan. I know people like that. Only God knows what happens to such souls. So saying leave her, is not prudent to say to anyone that is suffering through something similar. The situation I’ve suggested is actually real, but mostly hypothetical.

You always hear of women bashing men for these actions. But I’ve learned that women are not far behind men if not equal. These are statistics dealing with confessions according to priests. Women are looking at porn I heard. I don’t mean to sound ungrateful for your advice, but that’s not really good advice to begin with… the last part about separating unless the man is totally distraught over the issue. Some people take longer than others to learn, understand, cope, etc. I have PTSD, but for military reasons. I’m talking about the woman having PTSD. PTSD has unique symptoms that make you vulnerable in many ways. In fact, when I go to confession the priest tells me exactly what I’ve said, repeatedly. That includes “hardcore Catholic priests” or old school. I am in no way suggesting that its okay to sin, I’m saying that anxieties and habits make a huge difference. I’m looking for a wide variety of thoughts on the subject.

When I returned to the Catholic Church because I left under the same symptoms I suffer from today, extreme anxieties caused from PTSD. Sufferers are confused, mentally incapacitated much of the time, suffer debilitating anxieties, etc. If you’re interested, Google PTSD related to Veterans and Rape victims. Serious accidents don’t have to be in combat. Abandoned children may have it and it adversely affects their choices growing up. It explains my symptoms as a hole. Prior to going to the VA for medical care I was told I had Major Depression - Severe with major anxieties. But when you look at the whole symptoms, some which I never told any of my therapists, I have PTSD without a doubt… But I’m side tracking.
 
I think a person dealing with such issues needs professional help; it sure sounds like you have a lot to deal with.

Prayers for you and your wife as you struggle with marital issues and PTSD. I am sorry you are struggling so much and pray that God will assist you in directing you toward the best path for help with these issues.

Peace,
Mary.
 
OLofMtCarmel said:
So, with children and mental illness at play, you’re recommendation is to seek separation if all else fails? I don’t think that advice is prudent. Let’s say the wife gets stressed really easy and suffers from PTSD, which is a major anxiety disorder. Priests would tell her that it’s not a spiritual matter for her but rather a health issue requiring treatment. You suggest that someone leave a spouse because they committed a mortal sin repeatedly. That’s not grounds for a annulment and because there are young children the clergy would suggest to at least stay in the marriage until the children grow up. That’s overly simplified.

I was looking for how the man should deal with the situation, which you suggested - talk with her. I noticed another similar thread after I posted this one. I might have been better to continue that one. But he has a unique situation in which his wife is not under the Catholic Church’s jurisdition to her knowledge or beliefs. The fact that she learned what the Catholic Church teaches doesn’t make her culpable for not believing it either. She may still believe the Catholic Church is pagan. I know people like that. Only God knows what happens to such souls. So saying leave her, is not prudent to say to anyone that is suffering through something similar. The situation I’ve suggested is actually real, but mostly hypothetical.

You always hear of women bashing men for these actions. But I’ve learned that women are not far behind men if not equal. These are statistics dealing with confessions according to priests. Women are looking at porn I heard. I don’t mean to sound ungrateful for your advice, but that’s not really good advice to begin with… the last part about separating unless the man is totally distraught over the issue. Some people take longer than others to learn, understand, cope, etc. I have PTSD, but for military reasons. I’m talking about the woman having PTSD. PTSD has unique symptoms that make you vulnerable in many ways. In fact, when I go to confession the priest tells me exactly what I’ve said, repeatedly. That includes “hardcore Catholic priests” or old school. I am in no way suggesting that its okay to sin, I’m saying that anxieties and habits make a huge difference. I’m looking for a wide variety of thoughts on the subject.

When I returned to the Catholic Church because I left under the same symptoms I suffer from today, extreme anxieties caused from PTSD. Sufferers are confused, mentally incapacitated much of the time, suffer debilitating anxieties, etc. If you’re interested, Google PTSD related to Veterans and Rape victims. Serious accidents don’t have to be in combat. Abandoned children may have it and it adversely affects their choices growing up. It explains my symptoms as a hole. Prior to going to the VA for medical care I was told I had Major Depression - Severe with major anxieties. But when you look at the whole symptoms, some which I never told any of my therapists, I have PTSD without a doubt… But I’m side tracking.
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Your first post was very minimal - I responded based on the minimal information you provided. Obviously, “Get marriage counseling,” means that you see an experienced counselor, perhaps for years.

I did not say “Leave your wife.” I said, “Consider separation IF the wife is not receptive to change.” A sexless marriage where one of the parties has PTSD is not a fully functioning relationship. Of course the first preference would be that the person with PTSD gets help and returns to the marriage as a full partner. And separation does not necessarily lead to divorce - in fact, sometimes it will help the partner to seek help because the shock of being away from his/her family reaches them deeply.

Your OP was quite cryptic. If you’re the one with PTSD and you are not having relations with your wife, you’ve both got the responsibility to seek therapy and/or medications.
 
I was not being cryptic. I was generalizing over a thought, not an actual event. I said I have PTSD and this is what prompted my curiosity about this subject. I do think separation after I’ve read about it in more detail can be a viable option though. I say viable instead of good because it’s not good. It may be a necessary step for a couple to come to grips with their situation. I have a friend that is actually separated form his wife, but he’s talking that it’ll probably end up in divorce, which saddens me for his children.

I love my wife and we do not have a sexless marriage. THought we may hardly do things right now its because of life stressors. That’ is what got me to thinking about these things. We live in a culture where masturbation is consider not only normal but perfectly understandable and preferred seemingly. I’m not sure about the whole things because that is not my world. My wife and I are under enormous stress related to my illness. I’m playing home dad right now while attending college. The cost of living has sky rocketed since 911 and it has left us in the dust years ago. We are about to fall down, again, because of normal expenses many seem to take for granted as no problem. We can’t even afford our deductables because things are so tight. In spite of all this we still love and care for each other, even with our faults.

It’s funny that eveyone expected me to say this was about me and my wife. I understand I guess. But it really is theoretical. I did not know where to post it and therefore posted it here. I would be left in the dust on a theology thread. But I would certainly like to learn.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut though.
 
OLofMtCarmel said:
I was not being cryptic. I was generalizing over a thought, not an actual event. I said I have PTSD and this is what prompted my curiosity about this subject. I do think separation after I’ve read about it in more detail can be a viable option though. I say viable instead of good because it’s not good. It may be a necessary step for a couple to come to grips with their situation. I have a friend that is actually separated form his wife, but he’s talking that it’ll probably end up in divorce, which saddens me for his children.

I love my wife and we do not have a sexless marriage. THought we may hardly do things right now its because of life stressors. That’ is what got me to thinking about these things. We live in a culture where masturbation is consider not only normal but perfectly understandable and preferred seemingly. I’m not sure about the whole things because that is not my world. My wife and I are under enormous stress related to my illness. I’m playing home dad right now while attending college. The cost of living has sky rocketed since 911 and it has left us in the dust years ago. We are about to fall down, again, because of normal expenses many seem to take for granted as no problem. We can’t even afford our deductables because things are so tight. In spite of all this we still love and care for each other, even with our faults.

It’s funny that eveyone expected me to say this was about me and my wife. I understand I guess. But it really is theoretical. I did not know where to post it and therefore posted it here. I would be left in the dust on a theology thread. But I would certainly like to learn.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut though.
Click to expand...
:

If you’re here to learn you are in the right place! Why not just ask the particular ? regarding the topic you’d like to learn more about? When something is just theoretical it’s difficult sometimes to know what parts are pertaining to a poster they’d like (name removed by moderator)ut about and then what parts are theoretical.
Peace in Christ,
Mary.
 
OLofMtCarmel said:
I was not being cryptic. I was generalizing over a thought, not an actual event. I said I have PTSD and this is what prompted my curiosity about this subject. I do think separation after I’ve read about it in more detail can be a viable option though. I say viable instead of good because it’s not good. It may be a necessary step for a couple to come to grips with their situation. I have a friend that is actually separated form his wife, but he’s talking that it’ll probably end up in divorce, which saddens me for his children.

I love my wife and we do not have a sexless marriage. THought we may hardly do things right now its because of life stressors. That’ is what got me to thinking about these things. We live in a culture where masturbation is consider not only normal but perfectly understandable and preferred seemingly. I’m not sure about the whole things because that is not my world. My wife and I are under enormous stress related to my illness. I’m playing home dad right now while attending college. The cost of living has sky rocketed since 911 and it has left us in the dust years ago. We are about to fall down, again, because of normal expenses many seem to take for granted as no problem. We can’t even afford our deductables because things are so tight. In spite of all this we still love and care for each other, even with our faults.

It’s funny that eveyone expected me to say this was about me and my wife. I understand I guess. But it really is theoretical. I did not know where to post it and therefore posted it here. I would be left in the dust on a theology thread. But I would certainly like to learn.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut though.
Click to expand...
Okay, here are my observations. I will just give you my own perspective as a Catholic who has been very edified by my time here on CAF.

A marriage is forever. However, God intends for a marriage to be productive, and that means physical intimacy. If that is not possible, it is my understanding that the marriage is not valid in the eyes of the Church. We have to be open to the possibility of life, which means sexual intimacy - ergo, no sex, no openness to life = not a valid marriage. This does not mean that a couple should then divorce and get an annulment, although theoretically they could. Masturbation is ALWAYS gravely disordered because it takes the sexual intimacy that is reserved for the spouse, and puts in back onto oneself. It is also connected with fantasy and sometimes porn usage, which is also gravely disordered. If the husband or wife is masturbating but not having sexual intimacy with the other spouse, something is very wrong inside that person, and therapy would be recommended. If there is also PTSD, then both of them need help, because they are not united but divided in their separate wounds.

If the spouse suffering from PTSD does not want to be physically intimate because of the stress, the other spouse cannot masturbate instead. It doesn’t matter what the values of society are - we are called to higher motives. It would be a challenge for some people to be understanding if their spouse could not be physically intimate. But eventually, if we live long enough, we all get to a point where physical intimacy is not going to be our #1 concern.

I hope that helps you. In your theoretical situation, the marriage needs help and both people in the marriage also need help. There are many resources to help, including Catholic Charities which offers counseling on a sliding income scale. That is where Catholics should go first for counseling, if possible.

p.s. I noticed you said the wife is sterile - did she do this after the last child was born? That is also a grave sin for Catholics. Maybe she’s not Catholic?
 
TheRealJuliane said:
Okay, here are my observations. I will just give you my own perspective as a Catholic who has been very edified by my time here on CAF.

A marriage is forever. However, God intends for a marriage to be productive, and that means physical intimacy. If that is not possible, it is my understanding that the marriage is not valid in the eyes of the Church. We have to be open to the possibility of life, which means sexual intimacy - ergo, no sex, no openness to life = not a valid marriage. This does not mean that a couple should then divorce and get an annulment, although theoretically they could. Masturbation is ALWAYS gravely disordered because it takes the sexual intimacy that is reserved for the spouse, and puts in back onto oneself. It is also connected with fantasy and sometimes porn usage, which is also gravely disordered. If the husband or wife is masturbating but not having sexual intimacy with the other spouse, something is very wrong inside that person, and therapy would be recommended. If there is also PTSD, then both of them need help, because they are not united but divided in their separate wounds.

If the spouse suffering from PTSD does not want to be physically intimate because of the stress, the other spouse cannot masturbate instead. It doesn’t matter what the values of society are - we are called to higher motives. It would be a challenge for some people to be understanding if their spouse could not be physically intimate. But eventually, if we live long enough, we all get to a point where physical intimacy is not going to be our #1 concern.

I hope that helps you. In your theoretical situation, the marriage needs help and both people in the marriage also need help. There are many resources to help, including Catholic Charities which offers counseling on a sliding income scale. That is where Catholics should go first for counseling, if possible.

p.s. I noticed you said the wife is sterile - did she do this after the last child was born? That is also a grave sin for Catholics. Maybe she’s not Catholic?
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The part I highlighted in pink is not entirely correct. The marriage is invalid only if the person entered into the marriage incapable of performing the marriage act, or unwilling to perform the marriage act ever.

If a spouse following the marriage unilaterally stops intimacy without a legitamate reason, objectively it becomes grave matter. But it does not rise to the level of turning a valid marriage invalid.

A valid marriage is valid from the beginning. An invalid marriage is invalid from the beginning.
 
Mary_Gail_36 said:
The part I highlighted in pink is not entirely correct. The marriage is invalid only if the person entered into the marriage incapable of performing the marriage act, or unwilling to perform the marriage act ever.

If a spouse following the marriage unilaterally stops intimacy without a legitamate reason, objectively it becomes grave matter. But it does not rise to the level of turning a valid marriage invalid.

A valid marriage is valid from the beginning. An invalid marriage is invalid from the beginning.
Click to expand...
Thank you for helping to clarify that. I meant to say if the person had no intention of having children from the beginning, but forgot to add that part and left the statement about the lack of intimacy.

These issues need to be dealt with in therapy, if possible. If the spouse will not cooperate in therapy, there might be remedies.

Since you are responding, what if the spouse wanted children before marriage but changed his/her mind afterward and refused to have sexual intimacy? What could happen so that the spouse who wants children isn’t trapped forever in a childless, sexless marriage?
 
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