Not kneeling when GIRM tells you to

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Inquiringperson

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I have heard of some parishioners not kneeling without just reason during the Eucharistic prayer. Do they commit mortal sin if they knowingly goes against what GIRM tells them to do, in this case not kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer?
 
While it is certainly possible to willfully commit a sacrilege at Mass that rises to the gravity of a mortal sin, it is not a mortal sin, per se, to fail to observe every jot and tittle of the GIRM. I have never seen anywhere that the Church has taught that it is.

Say the black, do the red, and as much as possible try not to be distracted by those who don’t. Rather, put the most charitable interpretation on their failures that is possible, and let it go.
 
My wife and I often do not kneel when we are suppose to. We both look pretty healthy too. However, my wife has had several knee surgeries and I have nerve damage which affects my left leg. If we were to kneel, we might not be able to walk later in the day. And yet we look healthy (although I walk with a cane most days). We have had to deal with very uncharitable looks and whispers from some folks, but our priest told us that if he sees us kneeling again, he’ll slap us silly (hyprerbole, I hope)…

Use caution when finding fault in others… There may be reasons you’re not aware of.

God bless
 
When I don’t have a kneeler, I stand. I understand that the U.S. has an indult to kneel, anyway (standing is preferred).
 
To kneel or not to keenl?

Of course most people have been taught to be respectful to our faith and the teachings of the church. However, are we not to judge, least we be judged? I truly don’t understand how one can attend mass and have their mine on what another worshiper is doing or not doing unless it is completely out of line and annoying.
When I was a young mother I attended Midnight Mass during the Christmas Holiday with my three young sons. Alas, a co-worker of my husband’s had brought their father to the service and he was not only “in his cups” he was loud and very obnoxious. Our family only smiled at our friends and put our attention on the mass and our little boys. If our roles had been reversed I would hope for their understanding and prays.

If the question is asking if it is wrong to not kneel…If you can’t …you can’t. If I’m wrong or if my thinking is traveling down the wrong road please correct me.
 
Ok guys, but I think some of you mistook me. I’m not implying that I want to know why some people don’t kneel. The question is, if you don’t kneel without just reason, is that a mortal sin?
 
105lynne said:
Stupid question…what does GIRM stand for?
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General Instruction of the Roman Missal

It gives official directions concerning how the Mass is to be celebrated. It’s easier to point you to it than to describe it:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20030317_ordinamento-messale_en.html

One caveat: I have found that some parishes and dioceses are better about updating their website than the Vatican is! (The last time I checked, the Vatican had the older version of the Catechism posted, for instance.)
 
Inquiringperson said:
Ok guys, but I think some of you mistook me. I’m not implying that I want to know why some people don’t kneel. The question is, if you don’t kneel without just reason, is that a mortal sin?
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No. A person who fails to kneel during the Eucharistic Prayer would not commit sacrilege by receiving Holy Communion, provided their failure to kneel was not itself intended as a sacrilege.

Actually, I suspect there might be a greater danger that gossip intended to harm the reputation of other persons would rise to the gravity of a mortal sin than failure to kneel. After all, if committed with the purpose of doing serious harm to someone else’s reputation without just cause, calumny and detraction are objectively mortal sins. I cannot for the life of me think of a just cause for spreading this particular rumor.

If someone else takes it upon themselves to inform you of the faults or suspected faults of another, please warn them that they are treading on spiritually perilous ground, assure them that you don’t think they meant any harm, but then insist on changing the subject. This kind of gossip probably does more harm to parishes than anything else; it is very important to nip it in the bud.
 
EasterJoy said:
No. A person who fails to kneel during the Eucharistic Prayer would not commit sacrilege by receiving Holy Communion, provided their failure to kneel was not itself intended as a sacrilege.

Actually, I suspect there might be a greater danger that gossip intended to harm the reputation of other persons would rise to the gravity of a mortal sin than failure to kneel. After all, if committed with the purpose of doing serious harm to someone else’s reputation without just cause, calumny and detraction are objectively mortal sins. I cannot for the life of me think of a just cause for spreading this particular rumor.

If someone else takes it upon themselves to inform you of the faults or suspected faults of another, please warn them that they are treading on spiritually perilous ground, assure them that you don’t think they meant any harm, but then insist on changing the subject. This kind of gossip probably does more harm to parishes than anything else; it is very important to nip it in the bud.
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What happens if the person was willing to commit sacrilege by not failing to kneel?
 
EasterJoy said:
No. A person who fails to kneel during the Eucharistic Prayer would not commit sacrilege by receiving Holy Communion, provided their failure to kneel was not itself intended as a sacrilege.

Actually, I suspect there might be a greater danger that gossip intended to harm the reputation of other persons would rise to the gravity of a mortal sin than failure to kneel. After all, if committed with the purpose of doing serious harm to someone else’s reputation without just cause, calumny and detraction are objectively mortal sins. I cannot for the life of me think of a just cause for spreading this particular rumor.

If someone else takes it upon themselves to inform you of the faults or suspected faults of another, please warn them that they are treading on spiritually perilous ground, assure them that you don’t think they meant any harm, but then insist on changing the subject. This kind of gossip probably does more harm to parishes than anything else; it is very important to nip it in the bud.
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Well said, EasterJoy. I had to look again at the OP to see what you objected to, and it was this: “I have heard of some parishioners…”.

Agreed - I can’t see any reason for this gossip.
 
Inquiringperson said:
What happens if the person was willing to commit sacrilege by not failing to kneel?
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By not failing? You’re asking if they’re willing to commit sacrilege by kneeling?

If this is actually you that is electing not to kneel, then learn what is proscribed and what is possible, and do that. If you cannot do any of the things that are proscribed, then do the most reverent thing you can manage. If you are willing to commit sacrilege for any reason, then take that to confession. If you are concerned that other people are judging you unjustly, then offer that possibility up as a penance on behalf of their souls and your own. You do not need to defend yourself against their charges. As long as you have not judged them, you will have done them no injury. Be charitable, and you will be forgiven if you have suspected the innocent. If you are correct, you will no doubt win forgiveness for the sinners who have nevertheless presumed to accuse you. This is the example given us by Christ.

If it is not you, then let the priest presiding concern himself with educating those who aren’t following the GIRM. That is his concern, not yours. Again: be charitable to those you think guilty, and you will be forgiven if you have suspected the innocent. Love covers a multitude of sins.

Pray that those who have been “chosen ministers and dispensers of his mysteries may be found faithful in fulfilling the ministry they have received”, but don’t take on their responsibilities by correcting people who have not asked for your guidance. That is not the responsibility given to every Catholic, and there is a reason for that. You ought to stop anyone who is committing an act that is, objectively speaking, always a sacrilege. Other than that, unless the act seems to be something that the person is trying to conceal from those with an office to correct them, you need to mind your own business.

Objectively speaking, it is not always a sacrilege at all, let alone a mortal sin, to fail to kneel at the proscribed moments during Mass, so this is not a matter for the faithful to take up with other lay persons who have not consulted them for an opinion.

I know this can be a source of great anxiety for those blessed with the Holy Spirit’s gift of piety. This anxiety can, however, be the evil one’s way of rendering the gift of piety sterile or even poisonous. Satan has little recourse against saints, save to harden them with pride and the desire to control what is God’s to control. Beware of that attack! Be assured that you will be totally faithful if only you pray that every soul present at Mass is present and reverent towards the Lord, particularly in his awesome, wonderful, and unsurpassable presence in the Most Blessed Sacrament, and that God’s charity truly reigns over all, a thing for which our Lord thirsts above all things. Then that beautiful gift of piety will be the fragrant flower and will bear the fruit that the Holy Spirit intended when he gave it to you.

I hope this helps.
 
EasterJoy said:
By not failing? You’re asking if they’re willing to commit sacrilege by kneeling?

If this is actually you that is electing not to kneel, then learn what is proscribed and what is possible, and do that. If you cannot do any of the things that are proscribed, then do the most reverent thing you can manage. If you are willing to commit sacrilege for any reason, then take that to confession. If you are concerned that other people are judging you unjustly, then offer that possibility up as a penance on behalf of their souls and your own. You do not need to defend yourself against their charges. As long as you have not judged them, you will have done them no injury. Be charitable, and you will be forgiven if you have suspected the innocent. If you are correct, you will no doubt win forgiveness for the sinners who have nevertheless presumed to accuse you. This is the example given us by Christ.

If it is not you, then let the priest presiding concern himself with educating those who aren’t following the GIRM. That is his concern, not yours. Again: be charitable to those you think guilty, and you will be forgiven if you have suspected the innocent. Love covers a multitude of sins.

Pray that those who have been “chosen ministers and dispensers of his mysteries may be found faithful in fulfilling the ministry they have received”, but don’t take on their responsibilities by correcting people who have not asked for your guidance. That is not the responsibility given to every Catholic, and there is a reason for that. You ought to stop anyone who is committing an act that is, objectively speaking, always a sacrilege. Other than that, unless the act seems to be something that the person is trying to conceal from those with an office to correct them, you need to mind your own business.

Objectively speaking, it is not always a sacrilege at all, let alone a mortal sin, to fail to kneel at the proscribed moments during Mass, so this is not a matter for the faithful to take up with other lay persons who have not consulted them for an opinion.

I know this can be a source of great anxiety for those blessed with the Holy Spirit’s gift of piety. This anxiety can, however, be the evil one’s way of rendering the gift of piety sterile or even poisonous. Satan has little recourse against saints, save to harden them with pride and the desire to control what is God’s to control. Beware of that attack! Be assured that you will be totally faithful if only you pray that every soul present at Mass is present and reverent towards the Lord, particularly in his awesome, wonderful, and unsurpassable presence in the Most Blessed Sacrament, and that God’s charity truly reigns over all, a thing for which our Lord thirsts above all things. Then that beautiful gift of piety will be the fragrant flower and will bear the fruit that the Holy Spirit intended when he gave it to you.

I hope this helps.
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So basically, if you can kneel, and it’s very comfortable to kneel, but you choose to sit, that would be a venial sin at most.
 
Inquiringperson said:
So basically, if you can kneel, and it’s very comfortable to kneel, but you choose to sit, that would be a venial sin at most.
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These juridical questions mystify me. If you can kneel, kneel. If you need to sit or to kneel with your hind end parked on the seat, then do that. Don’t make your decision based on having weighed the smite charge for sitting, though. Please.

If the question is whether you can approach Holy Communion after having indulged an attitude that is not purposefully sacrilegious, but just comes from a slovenly desire to do as little as possible, well, the answer is that usually you can. Still, that is small-hearted. Don’t go there, and don’t assume that anyone else does. It’s just not a good attitude to have during Mass, of all times. That the attitude won’t send you straight to Hell hardly excuses it. Desire more than that.
 
EasterJoy said:
These juridical questions mystify me. If you can kneel, kneel. If you need to sit or to kneel with your hind end parked on the seat, then do that. Don’t make your decision based on having weighed the smite charge for sitting, though. Please.

If the question is whether you can approach Holy Communion after having indulged an attitude that is not purposefully sacrilegious, but just comes from a slovenly desire to do as little as possible, well, the answer is that usually you can. Still, that is small-hearted. Don’t go there, and don’t assume that anyone else does. It’s just not a good attitude to have during Mass, of all times. That the attitude won’t send you straight to Hell hardly excuses it. Desire more than that.
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Understood.

Edit: Now you know why I chose Inquiringperson as my name.🙂
 
Inquiringperson said:
I have heard of some parishioners not kneeling without just reason during the Eucharistic prayer. Do they commit mortal sin if they knowingly goes against what GIRM tells them to do, in this case not kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer?
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possibly, depends on the reason, intent, and knowledge
if the person deliberately knew the rubrics and deliberately disobeyed with the intention to dishonor the Eucharist, the Lord, the celebrant and the congregation, yes it could become a mortal sin.

if they think they cannot physically, that is good enough
if they have been instructed (improperly) be a priest or liturgist not to kneel, that also is enough
there is no possible way one can say with certainty “that individual just committed a mortal sin because she did not kneel.”
 
puzzleannie said:
possibly, depends on the reason, intent, and knowledge
if the person deliberately knew the rubrics and deliberately disobeyed with the intention to dishonor the Eucharist, the Lord, the celebrant and the congregation, yes it could become a mortal sin.

if they think they cannot physically, that is good enough
if they have been instructed (improperly) be a priest or liturgist not to kneel, that also is enough
there is no possible way one can say with certainty “that individual just committed a mortal sin because she did not kneel.”
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Exactly. It would take a true intent to profane or reject the Real Presence for this failure to rise to the level of a mortal sin. That doesn’t mean this a negligible matter. It means that it isn’t the act of kneeling, per se, but the willingness to adore Our Lord that is the main issue.
 
Inquiringperson said:
Understood.

Edit: Now you know why I chose Inquiringperson as my name.🙂
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I’m sorry for taking a harsh tone with you. I just cringe at the phrase “at worst a venial sin”. Morality isn’t about risk assessment. Getting closer to God is an unmitigated good thing, so things that put us farther from God, although some are of course far worse than others, are all without qualification things we want to avoid…not in order to avoid smiting, but in order to “fall in love in a quite absolute, final way”, as the Jesuits put it.

We ought to want to be in love with God, not with the anxiety of slaves or prisoners, but with the happy anxiety of lovers. That is what I am trying to get at, that’s all.
 
EasterJoy said:
Exactly. It would take a true intent to profane or reject the Real Presence for this failure to rise to the level of a mortal sin. That doesn’t mean this a negligible matter. It means that it isn’t the act of kneeling, per se, but the willingness to adore Our Lord that is the main issue.
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It means that it isn’t the act of kneeling, per se, but the willingness to adore Our Lord that is the main issue
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Agreed;

Kneeling or Prostratio as a symbol and gesture shouldn’t be just a physical gesture but more so a inclination that moves the soul into the direction of humble adoration when we are before our God in the holy Eucharist.

Kneeling as a symbolized physical gesture best exemplifies the inward motivation of adoration towards God Almighty. Far much more than the gesture of Standing.
 
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