Not knowing God

[dang71]

I have come to the conclusion that we cannot know God on a personal level. Many people talk of a personal relationship with God, and this seems impossible to me. why? We cannot know God on a personal level if He does not communicate with us on a personal level. No matter how many rosaries we pray, no matter how much we read the bible, attend mass, etc., if God does not communicate with us, we cannot get to know Him. some people say that they have communicated with God, and I will have to ask, how do you know it is God? it is impossible to determine the exact origin of any thoughts, feelings, personal revelations, etc. do they come from God, ourselves, or somewhere else? we cannot know, because God has not given us any sure way of knowing. it seems our church knows this also, because if we look at the “approval” of Marian apparitions, we can see that the approval is only stating that the apparition does not conflict with church teaching. as a matter of fact, we are not REQUIRED to believe in ANY personal revelation, including Marian apparitions. so it seems we are alone, adrift in an empty sea, and Our Father is just a cold, unavailable dad who is too busy with other things to bother with us.

 

[beckycmarie]

Dear Dang,

There IS such a thing as a personal relationship with God, but in order to cultivate that relationship, you have to have a prayer relationship with Him.

I found this book online, Progress Through Mental Prayer written by Fr. Edward Leen in 1937. You might find it helpful; it explains all the steps one goes through towards union with God, from initial conversion all the way to sainthood.

This is a pretty long read - took me several days to finish it reading a little at a time. I’m in the process of making a more user-friendly pdf version of it; when I’m done I’ll post that link.

Here is the full text from the EWTN library:
Progress Through Mental Prayer

 

[fhansen]

I have come to the conclusion that we cannot know God on a personal level. Many people talk of a personal relationship with God, and this seems impossible to me. why? We cannot know God on a personal level if He does not communicate with us on a personal level. No matter how many rosaries we pray, no matter how much we read the bible, attend mass, etc., if God does not communicate with us, we cannot get to know Him. some people say that they have communicated with God, and I will have to ask, how do you know it is God? it is impossible to determine the exact origin of any thoughts, feelings, personal revelations, etc. do they come from God, ourselves, or somewhere else? we cannot know, because God has not given us any sure way of knowing. it seems our church knows this also, because if we look at the “approval” of Marian apparitions, we can see that the approval is only stating that the apparition does not conflict with church teaching. as a matter of fact, we are not REQUIRED to believe in ANY personal revelation, including Marian apparitions. so it seems we are alone, adrift in an empty sea, and Our Father is just a cold, unavailable dad who is too busy with other things to bother with us.

The reason that a person can know that God is the one communicating with them is because He makes that fact known. This may sound strange but since God is God, vastly superior to His creation, the task is simple enough for Him. There are various reasons given why God “hides” Himself-why we can’t see Him-but He does reveal Himself to those who earnestly seek Him. As to private revelations, the main thing to know is that the Church acknowledges that they really do happen- even if she doesn’t consider it proper to pronounce on the veracity of any particular one.

 

[dang71]

Progress Through Mental Prayer

becky,
thanks for the link, and i will try to read it this weekend (or at least start). i have tried following Teresa of Avila’s mental prayer in the past and grew tired of it when, after months of effort, all it turned out to be was a conversation with myself and the wall. but i guess i will try again.

 

[dang71]

He makes that fact known

how? what is the exact criteria you use to determine if what we have is actually God speaking to us?

He does reveal Himself to those who earnestly seek Him.

i guess i have not been as earnest as i once thought, because i have never had any such revelation.

 

[allhers]

All the prayers at Mass are directed to God. I will pray that you will come to know Him better. He has revealed Himself to us in the Person of Jesus. Perhaps going to sites like this and reading, not necessairly these forums so much, but all the other good things on this site, like do a search on the Home Page. EWTN is an excellent source as well. God bless you and I sincerely mean that.

 

[beckycmarie]

becky,
thanks for the link, and i will try to read it this weekend (or at least start). i have tried following Teresa of Avila’s mental prayer in the past and grew tired of it when, after months of effort, all it turned out to be was a conversation with myself and the wall. but i guess i will try again.

Dear Dang,

I’ve been where you are, and in fact started off a few years ago trying to read The Interior Castle. At the time it was way over my head and I didn’t get it, and I was frustrated that I wasn’t “hearing” God.

Since I’ve started doing morning meditations (I’ve used Fr. Dubay’s method from Prayer Primer) I’ve started to “get it.” God doesn’t generally speak to you in a way you can audibly hear or perceive in your head. You just find yourself coming away from prayer with new understanding of what the Bible and our Church have been saying all along, and an awareness of God’s presence, complete with a feeling of peace, joy and love.

The other book I mentioned, Progress Through Mental Prayer I’ve found helpful since I’ve started to feel “stuck” and as though I wasn’t making progress. That book does a good job of explaining why this happens and what you can do about it.

Jesus says “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.” If you persevere in meditation, even if at first you feel as though nothing is happening, you will find yourself growing closer to God in a personal relationship with Him.

Here’s Fr. Dubay’s method of meditation that I’ve been using:

From Prayer Primer: Igniting a Fire Within by Thomas DuBay.

1. Find a quiet place.

1. Recollection of the presence of God: this does not mean you need to try to “feel” God’s presence; just acknowledge with faith that He is there.

1. (name removed by moderator)ut from Scripture or other spiritual reading.

1. Response: conversing with the Lord about what you’ve read; adoring, loving, praising, thanking, and sorrowing with inner, quiet words.

1. Resolution: determine to do something specific beginning today about what we have been pondering; resolving to change and grow so that our actions may match our prayer.

 

[water]

becky,
thanks for the link, and i will try to read it this weekend (or at least start). i have tried following Teresa of Avila’s mental prayer in the past and grew tired of it when, after months of effort, all it turned out to be was a conversation with myself and the wall. but i guess i will try again.

Not every spiritual book is meant for you. I normally pray and ask God to guide me to a specific book. It’s been a tremendous help.

 

[fhansen]

how? what is the exact criteria you use to determine if what we have is actually God speaking to us?

i guess i have not been as earnest as i once thought, because i have never had any such revelation.

I’m sorry. Of course I can’t judge how earnest anyone else has been. I just know the promise:
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" Hebrews 11:6.,
along with my experience which is that if a person perseveres, walking by faith and not by sight, God does answer in one way or the other because it’s His will to do so. Some of those ways can be extremely profound where a person has no doubt as to the author of the experience because the author of the experience orchestrates the whole thing. In that case, the awareness of the other beings’ presence and self-communication is as matter-of-factly real as the presence of another human being when they’re speaking to you, except that in this case it’s profound and indescribable because of Whose presence it is and the way it happens. I know that sounds somewhat crazy but it’s true and I only bring it up because you’re questioning God’s communication-and so questioning Gods’ reality and/or goodness. But I don’t expect you to take my word for it. Read some of the saints-their testimonies about this is truly awesome. God also shows Himself through nature and answered prayers and every time love and/or self-sacrifice expresses itself in the world.

 

[reen12]

quote: dang71

…so it seems we are alone, adrift in an empty sea, and Our Father is just a cold, unavailable dad who is too busy with other things to bother with us.

Would you be willing to accept that I do understand that which you have stated?

The existentialists, more than 50 years ago, posited that life was meaningless,
and therefore “absurb.” The only stance that one could have, in the face of the
absurdity that life is, was that of a rebel - who shook a metaphorical fist at the
cold, dead universe, in general.
L’Homme révolté, Camus named this very stance. Man, in revolt - against the absurd
condition of human beings. The existentialists, too, felt “alone, adrift on an empty sea…”

And, you know what? I read it all. Eastern thought, Western thought, Christian thought,
Judaic thought, along with 15,000 pages of professional level works in psychology.
None of this spoke to me. I battered my fists against the emptiness that was life.
‘Religious’ people annoyed me. Constantly asserting that God was near, and that
all that I had to do was pray to Him.

And the funny thing was, that He answered the unspoken cry of my heart.

I forgot all about “religion.” I forgot about the empty universe.
I found myself in a green pasture, with a Shepherd Who was, above all, quiet.
I found peace, there, where I had not been able to find peace anywhere else.
The questions stilled, of themselves.

It was now hard to see the universe as empty. I no longer cared if it was or it wasn’t.
God was there for me to lean against, in the pasture. He knows my heart, and He knew that it was a pasture that I needed, not the works of the existentialists or the assertions of theologians, or the claims of “true” anything. I found presence to be unspoken prayer.

The only way that I can convey, clearly, what I’m at pains to express,
is that God is the parent that I longed for.

I don’t need to tell Him anything. He knows, better than I can know. He never leaves me,
He protects my mind, heart and soul.
God plucked me out of the realm of philosophy, theology, and ‘forms of prayer.’
He brought me to a pasture that gives me repose. Here was the God Who said:

“Even should your mother and father forget you, I will never forget you.”
“See? I have written your name on the palm of My hand.”

It was a very long road. It took nearly 50 years. It’s hard, now, to worry about
the universe being empty, when the Creator of that universe let’s me lean against Him,
and fall off into peaceful sleep.

The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures,
He leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul… Ps.23

reen12

 

[LilyM]

I have come to the conclusion that we cannot know God on a personal level. Many people talk of a personal relationship with God, and this seems impossible to me. why? We cannot know God on a personal level if He does not communicate with us on a personal level. No matter how many rosaries we pray, no matter how much we read the bible, attend mass, etc., if God does not communicate with us, we cannot get to know Him. some people say that they have communicated with God, and I will have to ask, how do you know it is God? it is impossible to determine the exact origin of any thoughts, feelings, personal revelations, etc. do they come from God, ourselves, or somewhere else? we cannot know, because God has not given us any sure way of knowing. it seems our church knows this also, because if we look at the “approval” of Marian apparitions, we can see that the approval is only stating that the apparition does not conflict with church teaching. as a matter of fact, we are not REQUIRED to believe in ANY personal revelation, including Marian apparitions. so it seems we are alone, adrift in an empty sea, and Our Father is just a cold, unavailable dad who is too busy with other things to bother with us.

God communicates all right - not just His words but His very self - to us in Holy Communion - He pours Himself out upon us and into us, and we in turn become part of Him. Can’t get much more profound communication than that :nope: :getholy:

Do you believe you can communicate with a baby even though it doesn’t speak intelligibly? Or with someone who speaks a foreign language even when you don’t understand their words?

Then so can we with God. Takes effort and an acceptance of the fact that we’ll sometimes fail to understand, but it can be done, and God is certainly more than willing to do it!

Best of all, Holy Communion is just ONE way. There are plenty of others - in the pages of Scripture when read thoughtfully, prayerfully and with invocation of the Holy Spirit to guide us to an understanding of it, in the voice of the Magisterium of the Church, even in people around us.

 

[dang71]

i am really happy that all of you have found your peace here, but apparently this is not for me. i cannot force God to do anything, and regardless of the actions i take, if God is not interested in a relationship with me then it will not be. i have an entire bookcase of catholic books, and every one seems absolutely meaningless in light of the absence of God. there was a time that, for two years, i went to mass every day. i have been praying the rosary almost every day for 5 or 6 years. i have nothing but holy statues and pictures and crucifixes in my house. no matter what i do, no matter what i undertake, i never feel the presence of God or anything of the sort, and there is always someone telling me that there is just one more thing i need to do. unless God wills it, i will never reach that carrot, and there is nothing i can do to change that. my faith has devolved into nothing but frustration, confusion and depression. a guy on the radio the other day was asking why people leave the church, and all i could think was, if anyone feels like this why would they stay? if our faith is just a bunch of canon laws, encyclicals, rules and obligations, etc., and there is no experience of God, then we have absolutely nothing. no wonder people flock to Ebay to bid on a grilled cheese sandwich with the image of Jesus burned into it. no wonder people flock to Chicago to see an image of Mary in a chemical stain on a highway underpass. no wonder people get so caught up in all sorts of goofy, wacky things, because they are so DESPERATE for ANY connection to God. too bad all we find is emptiness and silence.

 

[water]

if our faith is just a bunch of canon laws, encyclicals, rules and obligations, etc., and there is no experience of God, then we have absolutely nothing. no wonder people flock to Ebay to bid on a grilled cheese sandwich with the image of Jesus burned into it. no wonder people flock to Chicago to see an image of Mary in a chemical stain on a highway underpass. no wonder people get so caught up in all sorts of goofy, wacky things, because they are so DESPERATE for ANY connection to God. too bad all we find is emptiness and silence.

Whatever those people seek, I don’t know them - I cannot judge them .

I’ve found my connection to God through serving other people. To see elderly at nursing home dying but still yearning to receive the Holy Eucharist strengthens my faith.

Through serving others, God fills my heart with love, hope and faith.

 

[beckycmarie]

Dear Dang,

God DOES want a relationship with you. That is His will for every single one of us.

When you go to Mass, do you just go through the motions, or do you truly understand what is going on?

This testimony of Catalina Rivas on the private revelations she received during Mass (which carries the approval of her bishop) is some food for thought.

The Holy Mass

Dang, I think the problem could be that you’re searching for a feeling rather than searching for God.

If you haven’t been to Confession lately, GO. I can guarantee you won’t have that relationship you’re seeking if you have any unconfessed mortal sins. Being in a state of mortal sin will keep you cut off from God.

I tried to seek God for many years while trying to avoid Confession at the same time. Once I finally went and made the first good Confession of my life, and resolved daily to love God by keeping His commands, and persevering in prayer, the floodgates opened.

I must warn you, though, that the feelings of love, peace, and joy are what He gives you initially to draw you into union with Himself, and may not last. Shortly afterwards, if you persevere in prayer, you may experience the dark night of sense, in which all those consolations are withdrawn so that you grow into a more mature relationship with God that is not based on feelings.

I am praying for you. Don’t give up hope.

 

[fhansen]

i am really happy that all of you have found your peace here, but apparently this is not for me. i cannot force God to do anything, and regardless of the actions i take, if God is not interested in a relationship with me then it will not be. i have an entire bookcase of catholic books, and every one seems absolutely meaningless in light of the absence of God. there was a time that, for two years, i went to mass every day. i have been praying the rosary almost every day for 5 or 6 years. i have nothing but holy statues and pictures and crucifixes in my house. no matter what i do, no matter what i undertake, i never feel the presence of God or anything of the sort, and there is always someone telling me that there is just one more thing i need to do. unless God wills it, i will never reach that carrot, and there is nothing i can do to change that. my faith has devolved into nothing but frustration, confusion and depression. a guy on the radio the other day was asking why people leave the church, and all i could think was, if anyone feels like this why would they stay? if our faith is just a bunch of canon laws, encyclicals, rules and obligations, etc., and there is no experience of God, then we have absolutely nothing. no wonder people flock to Ebay to bid on a grilled cheese sandwich with the image of Jesus burned into it. no wonder people flock to Chicago to see an image of Mary in a chemical stain on a highway underpass. no wonder people get so caught up in all sorts of goofy, wacky things, because they are so DESPERATE for ANY connection to God. too bad all we find is emptiness and silence.

Our faith is about learning to love God and neighbor. It has nothing essentially to do with the external things you have or do or the crazy things people chase after. Those can be crude expressions of faith at best, maybe, but the whole thing is much simpler than that. The basic message of our faith is this: God exists and created all, He is love, and He’s always desired our supreme happiness which will come by knowing and loving Him-and experiencing His love for us- and grants eternal life to those who do. If fear is an element at first, it can’t remain there-it should move into trust and then love. But God can easily get lost in the details if we get swept up in observing the externals and lose sight of the ultimate goal which is Him. And if you’re at the end of your rope and honest about it you may be closer to Him then you’ve ever been because God is the God of truth and we can fool ourselves but never Him. He’s there. He’ll answer. I can’t say when or how but it will be in the right time and manner. Another good quote is **“Be still and know that I am God.” **We need to do our part by seeking Him but we also need to know that ultimately He’s in control and in the end He’s “bigger” than our religion and anything we can imagine. Maybe it won’t do any good but I think this quote is appropriate, too: **“I desire mercy and not sacrifice.” **Check out Matt 9:9-13, Isaiah 1:11-17, Jer 7:22-23, and Amos 5:21-24. It’s about going beyond-it’s about such things as love and justice first. Sorry if this adds nothing new-I tried.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

dang71, one thing the Catholic Church does teach authoritatively is that God is all-powerful. This we must accept. In view of this, we can trust that he is fully capable of protecting his own. As Jesus said in the scripture, “no one can snatch them out of my hand.”

It is possible for people to willfully turn away from God and thereby expose themselves to delusion, but if they are standing firm, there is no way the enemy can destroy them. If you simply pray that God will protect you from evil spirits and keep them away from you (this is part of the Lord’s Prayer- “lead me not into temptation”), pray that God will speak to you (“give us this day our daily bread”), and pray that God will transform your life (“thy kingdom come, thy will be done”), you can trust that the transformation and communication that results will be from God. The devil’s power to reach us is not equal to God’s power, and the Lord can both reveal the truth to his children and protect them. Jesus said, “My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand” (John 10: 28-29).

If you cling to the Lord’s truth that he revealed in his Word and in the teaching of the Church, and if you pray with sincerity of heart that God will speak to you on a personal level and protect you from evil, you will be safe. This is the Lord’s promise to you.

Amen.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

i guess i have not been as earnest as i once thought, because i have never had any such revelation.

That is not true! I sought God for six months, praying every night earnestly for a personal relationship with God, hungering for him, scared and miserable because my religion was nothing but a house of cards, and what you say is true- I only encountered him at last because he came to me. I don’t know why it sometimes takes so miserably long. But don’t give up, please. Keep seeking. I don’t know why God sometimes takes so very long. Maybe it’s because after going through so much yearning, the experience afterward is that much more joyful, and we cling to it that much more relentlessly.

I don’t know why. I know that in Isaiah, though, Jesus says, “for my ways are not your ways, nor are may thoughts your thoughts.” I still don’t understand it. I only know that God does behave in this way sometimes, and there is a light at the end of our search if we keep seeking.

I’ll pray for you too. The Lord answered my prayers (at last) and gave me everything I could ever have hoped for, in relationship with him. Don’t worry; God hears us and he will come.

One more important point: I learned, after God revealed himself to me, that God himself had created the desperate hunger within me purposely in order to draw me to himself! I didn’t understand it while I was going through that miserable period, but it’s true. God purposely put that hunger in me to get me desperately seeking and yearning, and he did it all in order to bring me to a glorious experience with him. If he hadn’t, I wouldn’t have sought, and therefore I wouldn’t have found.

Why he does it for long I don’t really know, but I think the time duration can be helpful after the fact. It helps me to remember more keenly where I come from and what I came out of, and it also creates a sharp contrast between that darkness and the joy that resulted.

This is a common experience. You are doing God’s will right now by seeking him. You are doing what is right. I believe that you are experiencing such darkness probably because of your prayers, because God is answering your prayers by creating the hunger and seeking that results in glorious answer.

Don’t, don’t give up. The Lord is waiting and the Lord is coming! He loves you and is coming for you. Don’t turn aside, but keep your purpose steady.

“He who asks receives, and he who seeks finds. To him who knocks, the door will be opened.” I know that this is true, and I know how long it can take. I know that for some people, it has been longer than it was for me. But I believe that God is answering your prayers, and the hunger you are feeling is the result of his divine action, guiding you toward himself.

 

[puzzleannie]

just had to reply to OP with thoughts of a 2nd grader who told me today, with a sigh (end of CCD for the year)
“Well, now I know everything there is to know about God!”
“Rigo,” I said,“I am an old lady and I only know a very little bit about God, and I have been learning all my life.”
“That’s Okay, Miss Annie, I will teach you everything you need to know.”

 

[LilyM]

i am really happy that all of you have found your peace here, but apparently this is not for me. i cannot force God to do anything, and regardless of the actions i take, if God is not interested in a relationship with me then it will not be. i have an entire bookcase of catholic books, and every one seems absolutely meaningless in light of the absence of God. there was a time that, for two years, i went to mass every day. i have been praying the rosary almost every day for 5 or 6 years. i have nothing but holy statues and pictures and crucifixes in my house. no matter what i do, no matter what i undertake, i never feel the presence of God or anything of the sort, and there is always someone telling me that there is just one more thing i need to do. unless God wills it, i will never reach that carrot, and there is nothing i can do to change that. my faith has devolved into nothing but frustration, confusion and depression. a guy on the radio the other day was asking why people leave the church, and all i could think was, if anyone feels like this why would they stay? if our faith is just a bunch of canon laws, encyclicals, rules and obligations, etc., and there is no experience of God, then we have absolutely nothing. no wonder people flock to Ebay to bid on a grilled cheese sandwich with the image of Jesus burned into it. no wonder people flock to Chicago to see an image of Mary in a chemical stain on a highway underpass. no wonder people get so caught up in all sorts of goofy, wacky things, because they are so DESPERATE for ANY connection to God. too bad all we find is emptiness and silence.

What’s with this ‘unless God wills it’ nonsense? You’re not grasping the essential truth here. God does desire a relationship with you - it is the purpose for which He created you, He has made that abundantly clear in His scriptures. It is not for you to doubt His word, but to believe in it and act upon it if necessary.

I think you may be mistaken in what a ‘personal experience of God’ is actually supposed to be like. Reading the Bible IS a personal experience of God, receiving the Eucharist or any of the sacraments IS a personal experience of God. Sitting before Him present in the Eucharist in Adoration IS a personal experience of God. Your job is to open yourself up to that experience which is most certainly happening, not to doubt it.

These things are just as real as your earthly father or brother standing before you or beside you or touching you (as He does in the sacraments). Focus on the fact that He is assuredly there in all these things and many more, and pray for the grace to perceive Him.

What more could God possibly do to make Himself available to you? You want a voice from a burning bush or something? Even Elijah had to be satisfied with a ‘still, small voice’ instead.

 

[reen12]

quote: LilyM

It is not for you to doubt His word, but to believe in it… .

Uh…it isn’t? Says who?

The God of Israel wills salvation.
He forgives sin.
He makes a pasture, in which He gives repose.

Saul of Tarsus, who should have known better -
since he sat at the feet of the foremost rabbinic
scholar of his age, served up a critical confection -
Original Sin.

Bye, bye, to the yetzers, huh, Paul?

The new Cathechism makes fascinating reading,
on the subject.
With regard to “original sin,” the members of the church
are not to “tamper” with this hinge concept.
No ‘original sin’ - no need for a God/Man to save us.

Saul was, surely, a brilliant mind.
He was also an enthusiast - with a supposed vision
of Christ on his way to Damascus, to hassle the
young Christian community.

A bootlegger’s turn - and now Saul’s being lowered
down from the wall of a city, lest he be captured
and punished, for preaching Christ -
…when a while before he was holding the cloaks
of those who were busily creating a martyr.

Reminds me of that which St.Thos. More said to
his daughter’s suitor - who was considering signing
up with Martin Luther, one minute, and the next
moment was a champion of the faith. More said:

“I can only, hope, Will, that when you’re head stops
spinning, that your face will be front.”

Hello! Saul.

The God of Israel is far more compassionate and merciful
than is the God/Man proclaimed savior, by Christianity.
Anyone who would dream of accepting another as God Himself,

• who speaks of ‘eternal fire that is not quenched’ - can go talk with someone else,
  and take their scriptures with them, thank you.

Human beings are more merciful than Christ ever dreamed of being, apparently.
People work night and day, to relieve the terrible suffering of a burn victim. And here is, supposedly, Mercy Himself, speaking of roasting someone alive, eternally.

If one dropped down from another planet, and heard of this “merciful God/Man,”
they would have great cause to wonder about this deity.
And when our visitor read of the God/Man cursing a fig tree,
perhaps he would begin to tiptoe away.
And, if urged to can it, and read the scriptures - you must! -
it wouldn’t be long before this visitor headed back to his own planet,
where a sturdier and clearer concept of mercy prevailed.

Saul’s ‘creation’ of original sin is the hinge on which turns all of Christian belief.
No ‘original sin,’ no need for a Savior - in the sense of the term
as used, by Christians.

Saul declared: If Christ has not risen, then our faith is in vain.
Right, Paul. You knew, as well as I know, that no original sin,
no need for a savior - risen, or otherwise.

For Christians, “the Father” is a Person of a tri-part Godhead - comprising one God, in three Persons.
Hypostatic union. The philosopher/theologians must have had a field day! coming up with this nomenclature - draping mere assertion in polysyllabic spin.

Let others live with 'hypostatic union" and “flames that never quench” - and the cursing of fig trees.

reen12