Not liking NFP

[sherimarie]

It’s good to know you r re@ly trying to do wh@t the Church te@ches even though you h@ve @n (name removed by moderator)erfect underst@nding of the re@sons why. Keep holy i hope this will yeild gre@t gr@ces for your m@rri@ge.
I w@s very effected when my DH told me he could never find me un@tr@ctive, even during cert@in times of the month or when i w@s hving helth issues, i think if you m@ke @ big de@l @bout the mess to him it m@y h@rm his self im@ge. Thought i’ld throw tht out there.

 

[searching04]

You might want to read my post again, because you missed a main point of mine. The practice of NFP sucks and it’s SUPPOSED to! That dreadful part is what keeps the spiritual link between intimacy and procreation alive even when circumstances make it imprudent to have more kids. If it was easy, it would be no different than using condoms morally. It does take more effort, which is precisely why it is morally OK in some cases.

If you look at NFP as the catholic alternative to contraception, you will resent it. If you look at it as God’s merciful alternative to permanent abstinance in tough situations, it look a lot better!

You’re right, in re-reading the beginning of your post. It just seems that towards the end of the post we’re supposed to think NFP is great. Guess maybe I’m reading into it.

NFP works fine; it is church teachings combined with NFP that “sucks”. However, it is a fallacy for many, me included, that “that dreadful part” keeps any spiritual link to anything; it only raises qustions, problems, struggles, resentment. It is a huge contradiction if it is truly supposed to suck and be dreadful, yet bring couples closer. The lines about suffering or not being promised happiness on earth, etc. are pretty much empty. It simply raises the question, as it always does for many Catholics struggling with this and intimacy, as to why the church teaches what it does. It is why I do my best to not think about it too much. The CCC and TOB and CW do nothing to answer questions or change anything when one’s life experiences are totally different.

It is splitting hairs to say it is not “Catholic contraception” and “God’s merciful alternative to permanent abstinence”. It is most definitley the first because it is the ony thing allowed by the church; couples follow NFP and church teachings so they don’t have kids when they cannot affford to or are not ready, and because they church says doing other wise is grave sin and implicitly evil, etc, etc. It is “Catholic contraception while following God’s supposed merciful alternative”. I don’t for a minute believe that a loving, merciful God would want couples to struggle and be distant and their intimacy suffer because semen won’t land in the supposedly right place each and every time. The church assumes that couples will abuse sex and not have kids; it cannot condone one type or act of contraception without approving all of them at the same time. A holy catch-22.

We follow it - NFP + church teachings - because we are told to, and that’s it. Acutally, I follow it because my wife believes we need to because the church says so, and I don’t have a choice. So we deal with it as a couple and yep, it sucks. And for those that will jump in an automatically believe and say, “Well, you ought to be able to go without sex for xyz time”, it isn’t lacking sex - it is lacking the deeply physical, emotional and spiritual bond with my God-given spouse, and I don’t believe that is what God wants. But the church says it is.

 

[The_Bucket]

We follow it - NFP + church teachings - because we are told to, and that’s it. Acutally, I follow it because my wife believes we need to because the church says so, and I don’t have a choice. So we deal with it as a couple and yep, it sucks. And for those that will jump in an automatically believe and say, “Well, you ought to be able to go without sex for xyz time”, it isn’t lacking sex - it is lacking the deeply physical, emotional and spiritual bond with my God-given spouse, and I don’t believe that is what God wants. But the church says it is.

Who is stopping you from having all the sex you want? Certainly God is not.

Take a step back and realize that what you’re saying is that “I want all the positives from sex without any consequences” and that it’s not much different from the contraceptive culture that pervades today’s society. Granted you’re not asking for a free pass to hook up with whomever catches your eye today and that’s leaps and bounds better than most (including many married people). But you’re still asking for something quite similar.

Look, us guys are all in the same boat when it comes to this, are we not? It’s genetically imprinted in us to be fruitful and multiply, and while there is some emotionally bonding innately involved in sexual acts, it’s actually imprinted on us to move on after a time and find someone else so as to ensure as much propagation as possible. Yet our embrace of God’s plan allows us to overcome that second urge and at least for me it’s not terribly difficult. The first part? As I said, welcome to the club.

But God isn’t stopping you. If I may be so bold as to make a logical assumption here… You are stopping you and it’s because you are taking a step back and realizing that a consequences-be-darned attitude to frequent and “unscheduled” sex could strain your family as it exists now. And that’s fine. But you can’t be angry at God for the decision you’re making.

Oh, and for the OP… no offense but seriously get over “the mess.” You know what else is messy? Caring for a woman after childbirth by c-section. Changing infants’ diapers. Seeing discarded used feminine products in the trash that you’re taking out. And yet it somehow doesn’t bother me in the slightest. Life is messy.

 

[searching04]

Who is stopping you from having all the sex you want? Certainly God is not.

The church, however, does in fact restrict sex. We must follow NFP; we cannot have any non-intercourse sex in between. If we are not in a position to afford more children, which has been the case for many, many years, then yes, by default the church restricts sex. Do I believe that is what God wants? No. It is too convenient for others to fall back on the “Well, maybe God is calling you to have more kids” because God forbid the church is wrong. It is like pulling out a playbook.

Take a step back and realize that what you’re saying is that “I want all the positives from sex without any consequences” and that it’s not much different from the contraceptive culture that pervades today’s society. Granted you’re not asking for a free pass to hook up with whomever catches your eye today and that’s leaps and bounds better than most (including many married people). But you’re still asking for something quite similar.

No, not at all (though I do thank you for at least putting it much more politely than usually happens). This would be true if I actually believed that each and every time, each and every act, had to result in being open to life, that each and every sexual act has to be both procreative and unitive. Sorry, folks, but to those of you that have never been there - yes, non-intercourse sex in between NFP phases is highly emotionally and even spiritually unitive. Maybe not by your definition or that of the church, but that goes back to the above. Depends on what and how you view unitive. Then again, it doesn’t matter because the church decides that for us.

Let’s talk consequences - children, you mean. Let’s talk positives - all the great feelings and fun? What about the other positives - being intimately bonded emotionally with my God-given spouse? What about other consequences - the negative impact of not having that physical contact?

Look, us guys are all in the same boat when it comes to this, are we not? It’s genetically imprinted in us to be fruitful and multiply, and while there is some emotionally bonding innately involved in sexual acts, it’s actually imprinted on us to move on after a time and find someone else so as to ensure as much propagation as possible. Yet our embrace of God’s plan allows us to overcome that second urge and at least for me it’s not terribly difficult. The first part? As I said, welcome to the club.

The need for emotional bonding is much higher in some guys than it is in others. Look at it this way: the church says that sex has to be both unitive and procreative. In the same way, you cannot separate sex from emotional intimacy; you cannot disregard the negative impact on the latter when the first doesn’t exist.

But God isn’t stopping you. If I may be so bold as to make a logical assumption here… You are stopping you and it’s because you are taking a step back and realizing that a consequences-be-darned attitude to frequent and “unscheduled” sex could strain your family as it exists now. And that’s fine. But you can’t be angry at God for the decision you’re making.

No, following what the church says because it tells us we’re damned if we do otherwise is stopping us; not having the money or resources to provide for another child at our age is stopping us. The choice, the gauntlet, that is thrown down by the church when you boil it down is “either you have more children or you don’t have sex”. Believe me, if we had a bigger house and bigger paycheck, we’d have had more kids a long time ago. We have had neither for many, many years.

Do I believe God is stopping us? No, I believe God wants us to use our heads He gave us and to pray and to follow out hearts and consciences as a couple. But the church says otherwise and does not allow couples that option for fear and assuming that couples will abuse sex. So because the church says it speaks for God on this, we have no choice but to adhere.

Oh, and for the OP… no offense but seriously get over “the mess.” You know what else is messy? Caring for a woman after childbirth by c-section. Changing infants’ diapers. Seeing discarded used feminine products in the trash that you’re taking out. And yet it somehow doesn’t bother me in the slightest. Life is messy.

Thanks for being polite in your post.

 

[manualman]

Searching, it still sounds like your claim reduces to “if we can’t have sex, we can’t have a deeply intimate emotional bond during those fertile times.”

I get the high libido problem. Believe me. But if what I just said above is a true characterization of your marriage, NFP isn’t the foundational problem.

The practice of NFP sucks just like any other cultivated self discipline regime sucks until you develop the virtue. I’ve never been able to be a runner because it sucks (painful shins, aches, sweating etc). I haven’t developed the virtue (Some people say they love it, but I suspect they are liars). Some people are lousy at the spiritual discipline of fasting because it sucks and they have never gutted it out to the point of making it a virtue (OK that’s me too!). Making a healthy salary and having to drive a rickety 17 year old econocar to work in order to pay my kids tuition sucks, but that’s one I have learned to be OK with. Life is full of hard stuff; you can whine about it or learn to master it. Your choice.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I know you didn’t intend it that way, but children are the INTENDED OUTCOME of having sex, not a consequence. It is the GOAL of sexual intercourse, and we have gotten that completely turned on its head, where we try to prevent that intended outcome and have sex purely for pleasure.

 

[The_Bucket]

I know you didn’t intend it that way, but children are the INTENDED OUTCOME of having sex, not a consequence. It is the GOAL of sexual intercourse, and we have gotten that completely turned on its head, where we try to prevent that intended outcome and have sex purely for pleasure.

I meant the term “consequence” as you have it there… the intended outcome. The term has a negative connotation in today’s world but I meant it in its purest sense. The consequence, or outcome, of sex is children. The side effect to encourage the behavior is physical pleasure and emotional bonding.

As for searching, I’m with manualman on this. I guess the most polite way of saying it is that NFP is a struggle. But so is life! Society has drilled it into our heads that sex should be consequence-free but that is utterly insane because it’s impossible. Divorcing the pleasure from the life aspect doesn’t make sex consequence-free, it just unloads a new and much darker set of consequences onto us. The Church rightly recognizes this. The choice you think you’re facing of unlimited sex, spiritual bonding and no kids versus limited sex and frustration is not the one you’re really dealing with here.

Let me tell you up front. I am in your position. I find it immensely annoying from my perspective. My wife finds it frustrating as well. But conversations with her about the nature of sex and especially how she experiences it it reinforces my belief that if we abandoned the Church’s teaching we might “have fun” for a short, but major, major problems would start to develop.

 

[searching04]

Searching, it still sounds like your claim reduces to “if we can’t have sex, we can’t have a deeply intimate emotional bond during those fertile times.”

I get the high libido problem. Believe me. But if what I just said above is a true characterization of your marriage, NFP isn’t the foundational problem.

The practice of NFP sucks just like any other cultivated self discipline regime sucks until you develop the virtue. I’ve never been able to be a runner because it sucks (painful shins, aches, sweating etc). I haven’t developed the virtue (Some people say they love it, but I suspect they are liars). Some people are lousy at the spiritual discipline of fasting because it sucks and they have never gutted it out to the point of making it a virtue (OK that’s me too!). Making a healthy salary and having to drive a rickety 17 year old econocar to work in order to pay my kids tuition sucks, but that’s one I have learned to be OK with. Life is full of hard stuff; you can whine about it or learn to master it. Your choice.

Hey there.

It is not a total of if we can’t have sex, we can’t have a deep bond during fertile times. It is very much the fact that having extremely limited sexual, physical, emotional contact with my wife for many years - which is a critical piece to forming and maintaining that deep, emotional bond - has had a negative impact on overall intimacy. I keep trying to make that point, and maybe I’m the only guy who feels this way, but it is a lack of intimacy, not a lack of sex. Libido? What libido? That faded along with the intimacy.

Read it somewhere and it fits so well - men need sex for love; women need love for sex. Also, how can a couple have emotional intimacy when there is no sexual intimacy; how can there be sexual intimacy without emotional intimacy? No different than the chruch saying all sex must be both untive and procreetive; you cannot separate them. However, I believe the first because I live it; I don’t believe the second because I’ve lived that, too

You (in general) cannot compare not being a runner or fasting or your job and paying for kids’ college to this. Is nowhere near the same. Mastering running or your job are choices. NFP and church teachings are not really choices; they are imposed. Just makes it all the harder to follow when one lives it while not believving it and lives the negative impact of lagging intimacy. Master it? Just don’t know. Deal with it is about all I’ve ever been able to do. Or as you’ve said, learned to be OK with it, almost.

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

Y I don’t for a minute believe that a loving, merciful God would want couples to struggle and be distant and their intimacy suffer because semen won’t land in the supposedly right place each and every time. The church assumes that couples will abuse sex and not have kids; it cannot condone one type or act of contraception without approving all of them at the same time. A holy catch-22.

You sound quite resentful. But the truth is that artificial contraception strips away the life-giving aspects of the conjugal act so that one can indulge in the gift of sexuality while saying no to God. It is also a huge lack of trust in God’s Divine Providence.

Remember, one of the reason we receive Christ Holy Communion is to receive sanctifying grace which enables us to live the way God wants us to live. Making Jesus Christ our Lord means to trust and depend on Him completely in every aspect of our life. Trapping life-giving semen and flushing it down the toilet is not God’s will. What’s more, in the old Testament, Onan spilled his seed on the ground, which greatly angered God who is the Giver of Life itself.

 

[The_Bucket]

Hey there.

It is not a total of if we can’t have sex, we can’t have a deep bond during fertile times.

Far be it from me to instruct you in your relationship, but don’t you think that there’s more to “deep bonding” as you call it than physical climax? Pretty sure you can do all sorts of other things, even physically, without crossing that line.

Read it somewhere and it fits so well - men need sex for love; women need love for sex. Also, how can a couple have emotional intimacy when there is no sexual intimacy; how can there be sexual intimacy without emotional intimacy? No different than the chruch saying all sex must be both untive and procreetive; you cannot separate them. However, I believe the first because I live it; I don’t believe the second because I’ve lived that, too

Men do need sex for love, I totally agree. But do you fall out of love with your spouse when you’re not literally making physical love? I doubt that greatly. So you can separate them, for a long time in many cases. Go ask military spouses or spouses who have endured great medical problems.

NFP and church teachings are not really choices; they are imposed.

All the doctrine of the Church is “imposed” I guess. You of course have the option of not following it. We are all given free will.

Then again, I’m always curious about individuals who insist that they are Catholic but maintain that the Church is wrong about certain things because their consciences said so and it’s OK to do something else. We all sin. Many of us commit the same sin repeatedly. But there is a huge difference between being in the habit of sin and professing that the entity that is wrong is the Church and not the individual when the two are at odds over a key piece of moral truth. Go pick another religion if you want to disagree with the Church, because she’s not wrong. You are.

Like I said in previous posts, I not only sympathize, but I empathize because I’m with you… and I’m a pretty young guy to boot! So if you’re just professing your tiredness in a struggle to do good, then I’ll slap you on the back and say trudge onward my friend in this life of drudgery. If it’s something more than that, I’ll tell you to quit kvetching about your lot in life.

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

Unmarried people are called to complete sexual abstinence. Making the sacred vow of Holy Matrimony—a sacrament— means being open to life, not a mere license to have sexual relations. Reducing Christianity to merely following laws is not the way of love. Keeping the commandments in order to avoid hell is not exactly keeping the commandments out of love for God. Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen speaks about this. Here, take a listen…

 

[The_Bucket]

Unmarried people are called to complete sexual abstinence. Making the sacred vow of Holy Matrimony—a sacrament— means being open to life, not a mere license to have sexual relations. Reducing Christianity to merely following laws is not the way of love. Keeping the commandments in order to avoid hell is not exactly keeping the commandments out of love for God. Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen speaks about this. Here, take a listen…

I love Bishop Sheen and he has a good point. Embracing the cross is not easy and frankly it’s not required at all times, at least in my book. We’re all human so there are going to be times where we are not going to like certain aspects of our faith, moral code, what have you, because it’s presently making things difficult. Sometimes our spouses or family members make us angry or resentful and we don’t like them! But we still love them underneath that; I think trudging onward at a time when it’s hard is a sign that we’re choosing to love God and His laws even if it’s hard. Keeping that attitude for all times is not the best option though!

I should also note, Gabriel, that celibacy as an unmarried man was much easier for me than the sometimes fairly lengthy “droughts” caused by medical problems or NFP as a married man. When you flip that switch ON it’s tough to switch off or even dim it for awhile.

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

I love Bishop Sheen and he has a good point. Embracing the cross is not easy and frankly it’s not required at all times, at least in my book. .

Carrying the cross has a goal: Crucifixion and death to self, in order that we may put on a new self: Jesus Christ. Sister Faustina speaks in her diary about carrying the cross:

Carrying the Cross

(446) Then I saw the Lord Jesus nailed to the cross. When He had hung on it for a while,* I saw a multitude of souls crucified like Him**. Then I saw a second multitude of souls, and a third. The second multitude were not nailed to their crosses, but were holding them firmly in their hands. The third were neither nailed to their crosses nor holding them firmly in their hands, but were dragging their crosses behind them and were discontent.

Jesus then said to me, Do you see these souls? Those who are like Me in the pain and contempt they suffer will be like Me also in glory. And those who resemble Me less in pain and contempt will also bear less resemblance to Me in glory.

Among the crucified souls, the most numerous were those of the clergy. I also saw some crucified souls whom I knew, and this gave me great joy. Then Jesus said to me, In your meditation tomorrow, you shall think about what you have seen today. And immediately Jesus disappeared. *

I would strongly recommend listening to the 20 minute talk by Archbishop Sheen on this matter. It will change the perspective of the average Catholic of what it means to be Catholic…

 

[The_Bucket]

My point was simply that there are times when we are all cross-draggers and that’s OK, provided that we can step back and refocus after a time that we should be embracing it and not simply shouldering the burden.

I love St. Faustina; I even named my daughter after her!

 

[Maxxadict]

I can relate with searching…and I think some of you are missing a point he’s been trying to get out(maybe). NFP sucks the intimancy out of a marriage faster than if you shared a room with your in laws. Not to step on toes but I thought I’d add my experience.

My wife and I used NFP when we first got married almost 14 years ago. it didn’t take long for me to figure out that the ONLY time that my wife was interested in sex was during her fertile time. If the interest of one party is not there THE INTIMACY IS GONE. It didn’t take long for me to feel constantly rejected. I hated NFP and I was furious with our NFP teachers for telling us it was the greatest thing that was ever created…the best thing for any marriage. If the best thing for a marriage was constant rejection(my wife basically stayed away from me during fertile periods so we wouldn’t be tempted) I wasn’t buying it. We talked to our priest and told him about our problems(NFP was causing a HUGE rift in our marriage) he advised that if it was causing that big of a problem that we should use a non-abortafaciant(spelling?) contraception. We’ve used contraception for the last ten years. Partly do to the HHS thing, partly due to an examination of conscience we’ve decided to go back to NFP. I’m scared…I’m really worried that I will spend the rest of my days as a basically celibate spouse. I’m not sure if things will be different now that we’re older but I pray that this works and we can be intimate and in line with the church.

 

[ryecroft]

Just a thought - but I wonder if you could go ahead and use a condom that has a couple of pin prick holes in it so that some sprem could go through but not have the huge mess. I don’t think this would be technically ‘contraception’ - but then again, I’m not the Pope or a Priest.
God Bless
Rye

 

[Iheartcoffee]

I think it is great that you have made a commitment to NFP. As far as the issue goes with the “mess” you will probably find over time that this becomes less noticeable as you get more used to it. The human body just has a tendency towards being a bit messy, but that’s just the way we’re made. NFP is about embracing the entirety of your spouse and accepting everything that they are.

Have you considered other places to have sex that may lessen the “mess” like in the shower?

 

[Iheartcoffee]

I can relate with searching…and I think some of you are missing a point he’s been trying to get out(maybe). NFP sucks the intimancy out of a marriage faster than if you shared a room with your in laws. Not to step on toes but I thought I’d add my experience.

My wife and I used NFP when we first got married almost 14 years ago. it didn’t take long for me to figure out that the ONLY time that my wife was interested in sex was during her fertile time. If the interest of one party is not there THE INTIMACY IS GONE. It didn’t take long for me to feel constantly rejected. I hated NFP and I was furious with our NFP teachers for telling us it was the greatest thing that was ever created…the best thing for any marriage. If the best thing for a marriage was constant rejection(my wife basically stayed away from me during fertile periods so we wouldn’t be tempted) I wasn’t buying it. We talked to our priest and told him about our problems(NFP was causing a HUGE rift in our marriage) he advised that if it was causing that big of a problem that we should use a non-abortafaciant(spelling?) contraception. We’ve used contraception for the last ten years. Partly do to the HHS thing, partly due to an examination of conscience we’ve decided to go back to NFP. I’m scared…I’m really worried that I will spend the rest of my days as a basically celibate spouse. I’m not sure if things will be different now that we’re older but I pray that this works and we can be intimate and in line with the church.

A lot of human behaviors, such as interest in sex, are both hormonal and psychological. Perhaps try arranging very romantic date nights during phase 3. Humans can relate almost anything to anything if the cause and effect are consistent enough. (I once read in one of my textbooks about a man that got turned on by onion breath because his girlfriend in high school ate a lot of onions and didn’t use any breath mints before kissing him. He always thought of kissing when he smelled onion on someone’s breath). If you both consistently make Phase 3 a time for romance then it is very possible over time to make phase 3 a time that is arousing. Slowly “training” yourselves to enjoy phase 3 is possible.