Not of Scripture??

[Katholikos]

**Shibboleth wrote:

6 . But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Oh. Isaiah. Under the Old Covenant.

But does “righteousnesses” mean “works”?

My Dictionary of the Bible (John L. McKenzie, S.J., MacMillan, NY, 1965) has 4 columns, 2 pages of fine print on the OT meanings of “righteousness” – some of them specifically covering Isaiah 40-66 – but none of the meanings in any way could be ascribed to ‘works.’

How about the under the New Covenant? In the citations I gave or elsewhere? Did Jesus Christ or the Sacred Writers of the NT ever say anything about “works” being as filthy rags for Christians?

Thanks for your response. I appreciate it.

JMJ Jay
**

 

[Katholikos]

Shibboleth wrote:

6 . But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Oh. Isaiah. Under the Old Covenant.

But does “righteousnesses” mean “works”?

My Dictionary of the Bible (John L. McKenzie, S.J., MacMillan, NY, 1965) has 4 columns, 2 pages of fine print on the OT meanings of “righteousness” – some of them specifically covering Isaiah 40-66 – but none of the meanings in any way could be ascribed to ‘works.’

How about the under the New Covenant? In the citations I gave or elsewhere? Did Jesus Christ or the Sacred Writers of the NT ever say anything about “works” being “as filthy rags” for Christians?

Thanks for your response. I appreciate it.

JMJ Jay

 

[Shibboleth]

Katholikos:

Part 2 of 2
Reply to Shibboleth

We cannot “work” our way into heaven. Salvation is a free gift. But see Matthew 25:31-46. There’s nary a word about faith. The words “***faith alone” ***occur in the NT only once. James 2:24: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” So Luther declared that James was “flatly against the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works . . . therefore I cannot include him among the chief books [of Scripture] . . .”

He did and later recanted this fact. The Lutheran Church holds the book of James as Scriptural. Anyways if found the quote

Luther so eloquently said: “Oh faith is a living, busy, active, mighty thing, so that it is impossible for it not to be constantly doing what is good. Likewise, faith does not ask if good works are to be done, but before one can ask, faith has already done them and is constantly active” (Formula of Concord, SD, IV, 10-11).

 

[RBushlow]

Shibboleth:

Of course you know this because I am sure as you present your opinions that you have been told, “You are using language far to literally and ignoring connotation.”

The alter spoken of in Old Testament is different that the alter used today. The use of the alter is actually what creates its definition. I suppose you could insert that which is implied and state ‘sacrificial alter’ in such instances vs. the alter of worship as used by the Church.

What do I mean by this… well I suppose one could consider whatever Jesus placed the bread and wine on in the last supper as equivalent to the alter of today.

I guess all that needs to be realized is that OT alter does not equal NT alter. Alas, the Bible is not an end of what can be said and done but a reference. There is nothing in the Bible prohibiting the use of the Alter as it stands today. Adaphoria

Shibboleth,

No problem with your statements. I just don’t know who you are addressing. Could you put a name at the start?

 

[flameburns623]

Catholic4aReason:

flameburns623:

As respects ‘proof texting’: it is nothing more than the citation of a representative passage from the text, to illustrate or demonstrate a point being made from Scripture, or to establish what the Scriptures say.

Recently, I was in an e-mail conversation with someone about “faith alone”. His method of “proving” from scripture that the bible “clearly” teaches faith alone was a classic case of proof texting.

He apparently went to one of those bible search sites and did a search on the word “faith”. He posted every verse from the NT that had the word “faith” in it, to which he triumphantly added “Need I say more”? . . . .That’s prooftexting

That is also how the Scriptures are intended to be used. It is the practice of Christ and the Apostles. It is what Christians do. Sorry the Catholics don’t do it so. It is why so few of you have any hope of Heaven.

Roman Catholics do understand the concept of the “one” church. Protestants don’t understand this. Protestants think you can “go to the church of your choice.” This idea is unscriptural. Christ started one church.

Individual congregations and individual denominations are not the ‘one church’. The Church exists where Chrisitans meet for worship, irrespective of the sign on the door (or the lack thereof).

Katholikos:
Sola Fide has neither historical nor scriptural support except as the concept is read into them [eisegesis]. It was not taught by Jesus and the Apostles.

Again: millions of words have been penned on both sides of this issue, by scholarly men of good will and honest intent. We can’t resolve the matter here but the evidence is not so plainly one-sided as Catholic apologists like to pretend it is.

An instruction book is an orderly presentation, thematically arranged, with a beginning, middle, and end, containing everything anyone needs to know about a given subject.

The Scriptures are a collection of disparate writings – written by different people at different times and locations for different audiences and purposes

Blaspheming God’s Word is an ill-advised practice. The Bible is God’s instruction book He wrote it. He can design it as He chooses. We don’t get to judge it by our standards of literary merit. We assuredly do not snub it by calling it a ‘collection of writings written by different people at different times and locations for different audiences and purposes’. It is one book, revealed by Him over time, for all people, preserved by Him as the one and only infallible guide to knowing and serving Him in this life and the next.