Not practicing SS in Lutheran churches

[Novocastrian]

Jon, if someone came up to you and asked for directions to a “Catholic Church”, where would you send them?

I’ve dealt with this fallacy repeatedly.

Just because you’d send someone to an Eastern Orthodox Church if you were asked for directions to “an Orthodox Church” doesn’t mean that you’d be testifying to the unorthodoxy of Roman Catholicism. Just because you’d send someone to an Evangelical Protestant Church if you were asked for directions to “an Evangelical Church” doesn’t mean that you’d be testifying to some absence of the Gospel within Roman Catholicism.

Likewise, if Jon would send someone who asked for “a Catholic Church” to the nearest RC parish, it would in no way serve as testimony that (a) Lutheranism can’t call itself Catholic, or (b) that Jon doesn’t really believe he’s Catholic.

 

[Topper17]

Novo,

I’ve dealt with this fallacy repeatedly.

Just because you’d send someone to an Eastern Orthodox Church if you were asked for directions to “an Orthodox Church” doesn’t mean that you’d be testifying to the unorthodoxy of Roman Catholicism. Just because you’d send someone to an Evangelical Protestant Church if you were asked for directions to “an Evangelical Church” doesn’t mean that you’d be testifying to some absence of the Gospel within Roman Catholicism.

Likewise, if Jon would send someone who asked for “a Catholic Church” to the nearest RC parish, it would in no way serve as testimony that (a) Lutheranism can’t call itself Catholic, or (b) that Jon doesn’t really believe he’s Catholic.

You have extrapolated FAR past my simple direct question. The question still stands because everyone knows that in at least 99.5% of cases like this, the person asking this question wants to be directed to a Roman Catholic Church. Granted this fact does not invalidate Jon’s or your claim to be “Catholic” with a capitol “C”. It was intended as only one brick in a large wall.

I also have to say that if you find it necessary to criticize the question rather than answering it, then obviously I have made my point. Thanks.

By the way, a simple question cannot be a ‘fallacy’ because that question didn’t take a position. It was just a question. The overreaction is telling.

BTW Novo, where would you direct the questioner?

God Bless You Novo, Topper

 

[Novocastrian]

Novo,

You have extrapolated FAR past my simple direct question. The question still stands because everyone knows that in at least 99.5% of cases like this, the person asking this question wants to be directed to a Roman Catholic Church. Granted this fact does not invalidate Jon’s or your claim to be “Catholic” with a capitol “C”. It was intended as only one brick in a large wall.

I also have to say that if you find it necessary to criticize the question rather than answering it, then obviously I have made my point. Thanks.

By the way, a simple question cannot be a ‘fallacy’ because that question didn’t take a position. It was just a question. The overreaction is telling.

BTW Novo, where would you direct the questioner?

God Bless You Novo, Topper

Your position, and fallacy, seemed implicit in the question. I can see no other good reason for asking it.

The question still stands because everyone knows that in at least 99.5% of cases like this, the person asking this question wants to be directed to a Roman Catholic Church.

That’s precisely my point. Same in my example re: the Orthodox Church, etc. Now, in most circumstances I’d direct someone to the nearest RC parish. As I’ve said, I don’t see this as abandoning my claims; futhermore, my position is that RC parishes are Catholic; I’m sure you’ll be glad to hear that!

That said, in the city that I’m in, and in the circles in which I move, I know plenty of people who, if they were asking me for a “Catholic” or an “Evangelical” church, would really be asking about different kinds of Church of England parish. Which serves as a neat counterexample to the implicit dilemma you’re posing.

Finally, if I had a bit more time on my hands, and was talking to someone both friendly and theologically literate, I’d be quite happy to discuss what ‘Catholic’ might and ought to refer to.

 

[steido01]

I also have to say that if you find it necessary to criticize the question rather than answering it, then obviously I have made my point. Thanks.

Lawyer: “Have you stopped beating your wife?”
Witness: “I’ve never beaten my wife.”
Lawyer: “Stop dodging the question and answer plainly!”
Witness: “I can’t–”
Lawyer: “–Obviously, I have made my point!”

This is exhaustingly, depressingly comical.

 

[Contarini]

I
As you know, the Lutheran Confessions refer to the pope as the antichrist, making no reference to only the ‘office’ AS IF that would lessen the offense. As a matter of fact, the LCMS is a relative late comer to Lutheranism (at less than 170 years old), and it of course holds to the Lutheran Confessions. It would seem that the LCMS is making a distinction that is not made in the Confessions, and is in fact not what the Confessions say at all.

This doesn’t make sense. As you say, referring it to the office doesn’t make it better–in fact, it’s a much more serious ecumenical problem.

But there’s no doubt that the Confessions are talking about the office and not an individual Pope. Why on earth would you read them otherwise? What individual Pope do you think they are talking about?

Edwin

 

[JonNC]

This doesn’t make sense. As you say, **referring it to the office doesn’t make it better–in fact, it’s a much more serious ecumenical problem. **

But there’s no doubt that the Confessions are talking about the office and not an individual Pope. Why on earth would you read them otherwise? What individual Pope do you think they are talking about?

Edwin

I agree with this. It makes ecumenical discussions all the more vital. Even though some of the issues and concerns of that time remain, the language used no longer fits.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Hi Topper

As to the comment about being off topic – It is my experience that when people want to take a conversation private, it is because they don’t want to see it take place in public. Generally it has seemed to me that this request comes when the one side making the request is taking it on the chin (so to speak).

It is unfortunate that this has been your experience. And of course, you know that isn’t the case with me, primarily because I also suggested the possibility of you starting a separate thread.

Jon

 

[Annie39]

Hi Topper

It is unfortunate that this has been your experience. And of course, you know that isn’t the case with me, primarily because I also suggested the possibility of you starting a separate thread.

Jon

Jon IMHO Topper’s comments fit very well on this thread.

Annie

 

[JonNC]

Jon, if someone came up to you and asked for directions to a “Catholic Church”, where would you send them?

If someone came to me, asking the location of the nearest Catholic Church, as an English speaking American, I would know that they probably mean a Roman Catholic church, and I would happily guide them there.
By the same token, if someone asked me about the nearest Anglo-Catholic parish, I would know not to send them to the Roman Catholic Parish, but instead to a nice little Anglican parish that I know is decidedly more Anglo-Catholic than the Episcopal parishes in the area.
And in the same way, if someone asked me about Evangelical Catholic worship opportunities, I would obviously welcome them to my own parish.

The terms “Roman”, “Anglo”, and “Evangelical” refer to the type of Catholic one is speaking of. Evangelical Catholics recognize and value the Catholicity of the faith. We confess the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, recognize the early councils, and believe teach and confess the efficacy of the sacraments of Baptism, Absolution, and the Eucharist.
In closing my part of this conversation, I recognize that some Catholics few the term “Roman Catholic” as negative because of its pejorative roots. That is why I rarely use it, out of respect.
“Lutheran” has similar roots, and while I am not offended by the term, I find Evangelical Catholic to provide better clarity.
Mutual respect is important.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Jon IMHO Topper’s comments fit very well on this thread.

Annie

That’s not exactly what you said earlier. And it isn’t the way you started the thread, in addressing a specific conversation we had on a different thread. But that’s fine. I think I answered your question, even though your understanding of sola scriptura still isn’t what Lutherans understand it to be. So, I will bow out of the thread.
I’m sure my understanding of the topic of the thread would not stop him anyway.

Jon

 

[Annie39]

If someone came to me, asking the location of the nearest Catholic Church, as an English speaking American, I would know that they probably mean a Roman Catholic church, and I would happily guide them there.
By the same token, if someone asked me about the nearest Anglo-Catholic parish, I would know not to send them to the Roman Catholic Parish, but instead to a nice little Anglican parish that I know is decidedly more Anglo-Catholic than the Episcopal parishes in the area.
And in the same way, if someone asked me about Evangelical Catholic worship opportunities, I would obviously welcome them to my own parish.

The terms “Roman”, “Anglo”, and “Evangelical” refer to the type of Catholic one is speaking of. Evangelical Catholics recognize and value the Catholicity of the faith. We confess the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, recognize the early councils, and believe teach and confess the efficacy of the sacraments of Baptism, Absolution, and the Eucharist.
In closing my part of this conversation, I recognize that some Catholics few the term “Roman Catholic” as negative because of its pejorative roots. That is why I rarely use it, out of respect.
“Lutheran” has similar roots, and while I am not offended by the term, I find Evangelical Catholic to provide better clarity.
Mutual respect is important.

Jon

But the reason that I pray that you will join the True Church is the only sacrament that is valid in any Lutheran Church is baptism. I find it interesting that you distance yourself from traditional Lutheran Church

 

[JonNC]

But the reason that I pray that you will join the True Church is the only sacrament that is valid in any Lutheran Church is baptism. I find it interesting that you distance yourself from traditional Lutheran Church

How am I distancing myself from traditional Lutheranism?
Jon

 

[benjohnson]

But the reason that I pray that you will join the True Church is the only sacrament that is valid in any Lutheran Church is baptism. I find it interesting that you distance yourself from traditional Lutheran Church

There’s nothing I’ve heard from Jon that is contrary to the church. Frankly, Jon could write another catechism from what he has in his noggin.

 

[Annie39]

How am I distancing myself from traditional Lutheranism?
Jon

Read your second to the last sentence. I never heard such a thing. Never.you want to be Catholic. So come home.

 

[JonNC]

Read your second to the last sentence. I never heard such a thing. Never.you want to be Catholic. So come home.

Never heard what? Evangelical Catholic? You mean this sentence: “Lutheran” has similar roots, and while I am not offended by the term, I find Evangelical Catholic to provide better clarity.

Thanks for the invitation. It is something I regularly consider.

Jon

 

[spina1953]

I wonder about this term Evangelical Catholic that is used. I also wonder how Lutherans would feel if say Baptists used the term Lutheran Baptists or the Presbyterians used the term Lutheran Presbyterian. For me if one is Catholic than what is what one is and is in union with the Catholic Church otherwise if they are not in union with the Catholic Church and additionally, If one is Protestant meaning that they belong to a church that is not in union with the Catholic Church then no matter how much agreement there is on doctrines the Catholic Church hold and teaches, one then is not a Catholic but just a member of whatever church denomination one belongs to.

It is like saying that I am a member of the USA but am not a citizen of that country. It would be like saying that I am a council member of a town but do not accept the authority of the mayor and only accept some of the laws of the town but not all. To me it seems more a slap in the face for someone to claim to be a Catholic something but not accepting the authority or teaching of Catholicism. So I believe Topper 17 is correct in what he has said.

 

[Annie39]

Never heard what? Evangelical Catholic? You mean this sentence: “Lutheran” has similar roots, and while I am not offended by the term, I find Evangelical Catholic to provide better clarity.

Thanks for the invitation. It is something I regularly consider.

Jon

I was a member of the LCMS Lutheran Church for 10 years and still have LCMS Lutheran friends. I NEVER heard anyone including the Pastor of a Church with whom I had a social relationship with he and his wife refer to their church or themselves as Evangelical Catholics. I’m interested in when some Lutherans began refering their church or themselves as Evangelical Catholics. Can you help me out here?

Thats probably not very good English but I’m in a hurry
Annie

 

[Annie39]

I wonder about this term Evangelical Catholic that is used. I also wonder how Lutherans would feel if say Baptists used the term Lutheran Baptists or the Presbyterians used the term Lutheran Presbyterian. For me if one is Catholic than what is what one is and is in union with the Catholic Church otherwise if they are not in union with the Catholic Church and additionally, If one is Protestant meaning that they belong to a church that is not in union with the Catholic Church then no matter how much agreement there is on doctrines the Catholic Church hold and teaches, one then is not a Catholic but just a member of whatever church denomination one belongs to.

It is like saying that I am a member of the USA but am not a citizen of that country. It would be like saying that I am a council member of a town but do not accept the authority of the mayor and only accept some of the laws of the town but not all. To me it seems more a slap in the face for someone to claim to be a Catholic something but not accepting the authority or teaching of Catholicism. So I believe Topper 17 is correct in what he has said.

Very well put.

Annie

 

[steido01]

It is like saying that I am a member of the USA but am not a citizen of that country. It would be like saying that I am a council member of a town but do not accept the authority of the mayor and only accept some of the laws of the town but not all. To me it seems more a slap in the face for someone to claim to be a Catholic something but not accepting the authority or teaching of Catholicism. So I believe Topper 17 is correct in what he has said.

Not quite. A better example would be that Evangelical Catholic is akin to the word American. Is the latter exclusive to U.S. citizens? No. Mexicans, Canadians, and anyone in the Western Hemisphere can rightly be called American. Yet, U.S. citizens use it so often to refer to themselves, the word has gained a meaning specific only to them. Make a little more sense?

Early Lutherans, and Lutherans today, never thought of themselves as Lutheran (a term invented by Rome to imply that those who hold are beliefs are ‘followers of a heretic, rather than Christ’); rather, we see ourselves as the rightly continuing Catholic Church. Similarly, Roman Catholic was attached to those Catholics who stuck to Rome.

The most ironic part of this conversation is that Roman Catholics in other threads have accused Lutherans of blindly following one man. “See?” they say, “You even name yourselves after him!” Yet when we try to call ourselves by what we truly are -Evangelical Catholics- we are accused of dishonesty. Just can’t please some people.

 

[spina1953]

Not quite. A better example would be that Evangelical Catholic is akin to the word American. Is the latter exclusive to U.S. citizens? No. Mexicans, Canadians, and anyone in the Western Hemisphere can rightly be called American. Yet, U.S. citizens use it so often to refer to themselves, the word has gained a meaning specific only to them. Make a little more sense?

Early Lutherans, and Lutherans today, never thought of themselves as Lutheran (a term invented by Rome to imply that those who hold are beliefs are ‘followers of a heretic, rather than Christ’); rather, we see ourselves as the rightly continuing Catholic Church. Similarly, Roman Catholic was attached to those Catholics who stuck to Rome.

The most ironic part of this conversation is that Roman Catholics in other threads have accused Lutherans of blindly following one man. “See?” they say, “You even name yourselves after him!” Yet when we try to call ourselves by what we truly are -Evangelical Catholics- we are accused of dishonesty. Just can’t please some people.

I understand what you are saying but the fact remains that either one is catholic and thereby is a member of the Catholic Church or one is not. One can’t have both ways.