Not practicing SS in Lutheran churches

[marywarfield]

House takes a slightly harder line on one or two things than I’m comfortable with, but your post seems to bear little relation to what he’s actually said so far. In fact, his entire rejection of Papal authority stems precisely from the fact that he reads the Popes as flawed human beings like Luther himself. You’ll find conversation much more productive if you actually read what other people are writing rather than attempting to score points.

Actually I remember two months ago House was telling
me: Luther was NOT mentally ill, emotionally disturbed,
prejudiced toward Jews, these were all unprovable lies about
Luther made by the Church. That Luther only suffered from
and I quote: “justifiable depression probably caused
by the terrible attacks he suffered from the Church-in fact
in fear for his life.”

For House to even admit Luther was flawed at all
is remarkable progress lol.

So I suggest before you demean my posts in such a
condescending fashion YOU read all the posts on this
ad nauseum SS subject.

What is this anyway-thread ten?

 

[marywarfield]

Not all Protestants can be lumped together this way.

There are plenty of twisted views that do not emanate from Luther, and his view of teh Church authorities was influenced by his first hand observations of there twisted behaviors. I am not excusing Luther’s vitriol, I would be ashamed to be called after his name after reading his writings, but he had some valid complaints.

I think “Evangelical catholic” is a great way to self describe that does not identify with Luther’s hateful rhetoric.
marywarfield;12196513:

Consider the Church has historical and
traditional views of Scripture she defends. How many times have you heard a self interpreting Protestant say “But Catholics don’t read the Bible. Their priests
tell them what it means.”

This is simply the old propaganda first perpetrated
by Luther.

Can you please reference which Protestants these were

that occurred before Luther?

Please reference your statement that the laity were discouraged from reading owning
etc a Bible?

Have you attended a Catholic Mass? Where in a Catholic Mass
does the priest tell us what to believe in the Bible? He reads the Gospel
passage like most Protestant ministers. He then gives a homily on how that
passage relates to what we are doing in the world today.
Or if it is a saint day he then talks about the saint and how he/she lived that
Gospel. Not sure where in any of that the priest is telling us what we must
believe. So give me some reference please to back your assertion?

You state many Protestants believe in sacred tradition.
Please reference a few- what sacred traditions and how
did they learn of them?

 

[guanophore]

You mean, like how Roman Catholics point to their Pope?

Yes. Peter was the visible sign of unity in the Church founded by Christ, and in the same way, his successor remains that visible sign of unity.

How’s that workin’ out for you so far? I won’t link to them out of respect for forum rules, but how many groups like ‘Catholics for Choice,’ and ‘Progressive Catholics’ exist? Uh-huh. At least the crazies in our denominations have virtue enough to leave.

It works very well, actually. It is easy to tell an orthodox congregation, as they pray for the successor of Peter in the liturgy. It is also easy to tell when persons or congregations such as those you describe above have departed from Catholicity and the unity of the One Faith. I agree, it is more virtue to leave when one has chosen to be in rebellion, or at the least, disagreement than to cling to a name that describes something one is not.

And it’s not really us, or our Confessions that are offensive to the Pope. “Maybe, just maybe…”

I really have not found many “offensive” Lutherans. The ones I have met here on CAF I greatly admire and have taugtht me a lot.

But I do find the references about the Pope in the Confessions offensive, but even more so, the other writings of Luther which do not strike me as coming from a saintly heart.

I would ask the same question of those who choose to call themselves Lutherans that I do of those parties you mentioned above. Why call yourself part of something that has doctrines or beliefs you do not embrace?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

guanophore;12197522:

Not all Protestants can be lumped together this way.

There are plenty of twisted views that do not emanate from Luther, and his view of teh Church authorities was influenced by his first hand observations of there twisted behaviors. I am not excusing Luther’s vitriol, I would be ashamed to be called after his name after reading his writings, but he had some valid complaints.

I think “Evangelical catholic” is a great way to self describe that does not identify with Luther’s hateful rhetoric.

Can you please reference which Protestants these were

that occurred before Luther?

Please reference your statement that the laity were discouraged from reading owning
etc a Bible?

Have you attended a Catholic Mass? Where in a Catholic Mass
does the priest tell us what to believe in the Bible? He reads the Gospel
passage like most Protestant ministers. He then gives a homily on how that
passage relates to what we are doing in the world today.
Or if it is a saint day he then talks about the saint and how he/she lived that
Gospel. Not sure where in any of that the priest is telling us what we must
believe. So give me some reference please to back your assertion?

You state many Protestants believe in sacred tradition.
Please reference a few- what sacred traditions and how
did they learn of them?

Oh Mary, please give us your interpretation of this declaration per Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity

210. Thus, Lutherans and Catholics are able jointly to conclude, »Therefore
regarding Scripture and tradition, Lutherans and Catholics are in such
an extensive agreement that their different emphases do not of them-
selves require maintaining the present division of the churches. In this
area, there is unity in reconciled diversity« (ApC 448).82
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Lutherans and Catholics agree at a basic level on what makes a church apostolic and they acknowledge, each with characteristic accents, the true apostolicity of each other’s churches.
lutheranupress.org/Books/…-of-the-Church

Do you object to what your Church is declaring?

 

[marywarfield]

marywarfield;12197549:

Oh Mary, please give us your interpretation of this declaration per Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity

Do you object to what your Church is declaring?

No why would I do that?

My request was for him to give me a few examples
of Protestants I repeat Protestants honoring Sacred
Tradition.

What YOU gave me was a link to Lutheran and
Catholic commonalities on justification by faith?

Um not sure what you are trying to prove or exactly
what idea you are responding to???

 

[marywarfield]

One of the problems with the Protestant assertion
that the Catholic Church withheld the Bible from laity
therefore Luther was correct in his SS ideas is this
historical fact:

Originally much of Catholic laity were illiterate and could not
read or afford a Bible. However in 1440 Guttenburg began
printing press and by 1450, fully fifty years before Luther
was out of short pants, Guttenburg began printing Bibles slowly.
By the time Luther was in full swing, many different
works, not just religious, had been printed making
the ability to obtain written materials and learn to
read way more widespread than prior.
That is why the literacy rate was increasing so
quickly before the advent of Luther’s 95 Theses
and the Reformation.
Among who was the literacy rate increasing prior
to Luther? Catholics and Jews.
Increasingly Catholic laity both owned and could
read their Bible.
This had absolutely NOTHING to do with the
Catholic Church or Martin Luther or the Reformation.
It was due ENTIRELY to the printing press.

Therefore the claim that the Bible became available
to Catholics only through Protestantism is simply
false.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

marywarfield;12197585
No why would I do that?

My request was for him to give me a few examples
of Protestants I repeat Protestants honoring Sacred
Tradition.

What YOU gave me was a link to Lutheran and
Catholic commonalities on justification by faith?

Um not sure what you are trying to prove or exactly
what idea you are responding to ??

You made this statement:

You state many Protestants believe in sacred tradition.
Please reference a few- what sacred traditions and how
did they learn of them?

I thought you might be interested in what the Catholic Church points out regarding sacred tradition and Lutheranism.

Your comments seem to not reflect the Catholic Church in the 21st century and focus on irrelevancy and divisiveness so at odds with the Vatican.

 

[marywarfield]

You made this statement:

I thought you might be interested in what the Catholic Church points out regarding sacred tradition and Lutheranism.

Your comments seem to not reflect the Catholic Church in the 21st century and focus on irrelevancy and divisiveness so at odds with the Vatican.

Based on what? The fact that you gave me a link
to Lutheran/Catholic dialogue on justification by
faith and did not respond to my actual request?
I’m not in conflict with the Vatican. You though are
misreading my question.

My question was: a few examples of Protestants
upholding Sacred Tradition. You have told me and
others have told me not to lump Lutherans with
other Protestants. That you are not in fact Protestants.
And now you answer my question about Protestants
with a link to Lutheran Catholic dialogues.

Which is it then? Are you or are you not Protestant?
Do you consider yourself a Protestant?
Why should I NOT lump all Protestants together with
Lutherans if you yourself consider Lutherans to be
Protestants?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Based on what? The fact that you gave me a link
to Lutheran/Catholic dialogue on justification by
faith and did not respond to my actual request?
I’m not in conflict with the Vatican. You though are
misreading my question.

My question was: a few examples of Protestants
upholding Sacred Tradition. You have told me and
others have told me not to lump Lutherans with
other Protestants. That you are not in fact Protestants.
And now you answer my question about Protestants
with a link to Lutheran Catholic dialogues.

Which is it then? Are you or are you not Protestant?
Do you consider yourself a Protestant?
Why should I NOT lump all Protestants together with
Lutherans if you yourself consider Lutherans to be
Protestants?

But this thread is about the Lutheran Church; check out the title.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Do you reject the threats of hell fire made by Christ?

Yes these statements make a HUGE difference to you
when they come from an actual Pope than an anti Pope
like Luther.

You give Luther a pass that you cannot give a pope
yet deny papal supremacy. Lol.
Why do YOU think that is?

Why hold the Pope to a higher standard than your
hero Luther if he is just a flawed human being like
Luther? Hmmm?

Or is it that really deep down inside somewhere
you are aware that “papal” authority really DOES exist,
House?

No. I am holding the popes to exactly the same standard that I hold my hero Luther. I accept the truth that they wrote and reject then false things they wrote. I won’t give a pass to any false teaching whether it came from pope or Luther.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Actually I remember two months ago House was telling
me: Luther was NOT mentally ill, emotionally disturbed,
prejudiced toward Jews, these were all unprovable lies about
Luther made by the Church. That Luther only suffered from
and I quote: “justifiable depression probably caused
by the terrible attacks he suffered from the Church-in fact
in fear for his life.”

For House to even admit Luther was flawed at all
is remarkable progress lol.

So I suggest before you demean my posts in such a
condescending fashion YOU read all the posts on this
ad nauseum SS subject.

What is this anyway-thread ten?

Actually I remember two months ago House was telling
me: Luther was NOT mentally ill, emotionally disturbed,
prejudiced toward Jews, these were all unprovable lies about
Luther made by the Church.

Please produce the quote where I stated these things or stop lying about me.

 

[spina1953]

I assume that you’re not suggesting that these rules regarding torture actually justify the practice, right?

Hi Novocastrian: No! I am not suggesting that the rules regarding torture justify the practice. What I am saying it that during the middle ages, might makes right and torture was thought to be a means of getting at a truth. I am sure that there were some during those times that felt or thought that torture did not reveal any truth on the part of one being tortured and may have thought that one would say anything in order to stop the torture.
I think that sometimes we forget that people of different historical times often thought differently than modern man does in our own day and age. They did not have a police force and the king, prince or those in the Church with authority over the masses, or common people could and often did exercise their authority over them and was accepted as their right to do so. The rules of society change as time goes by and society learns different ways of understanding. There is still in our own day and age much to learn and change the way in which we deal with people who for many reasons go against society's rules. There will sadly those who think that they have some right to control others in what they are to believe or who one should live and are willing to abuse the rules of society in order to control others. Thanks for you questions. peace and God bless.

 

[Annie39]

Mary after reading the exchange below I’d like to comment.
EvangelCatholic is correct. I started this thread in order to have a discussion with Jon about the fact that I say that Lutherans do not believe in sola scriptura. The topic was meant to be Lutheran specific. I believe that this has been established here.

Annie

“My question was: a few examples of Protestants
upholding Sacred Tradition. You have told me and
others have told me not to lump Lutherans with
other Protestants. That you are not in fact Protestants.
And now you answer my question about Protestants
with a link to Lutheran Catholic dialogues.”

“Which is it then? Are you or are you not Protestant?
Do you consider yourself a Protestant?
Why should I NOT lump all Protestants together with
Lutherans if you yourself consider Lutherans to be
Protestants?”

 

[guanophore]

Can you please reference which Protestants these were
that occurred before Luther?

Jan Hus was, in effect, a Protestant, and was burned at the stake in 1415, nearly 70 years before Martin Luther was born.

John Wycliffe, widely regarded among modern Protestants as one of the forerunners of the Reformation, lived earlier still (d. 1384). He was exhumed and his remains burned as a condemnation of his ‘heresy’.

William Tyndale (1494–1536) was an English scholar who became a leading figure in Protestant reform in the years leading up to his execution. He is well known for his translation of the Bible into English.

Catharism (from the Greek: καθαροί, katharoi, “the pure [ones]”)was a Christian dualist movement that thrived in some areas of Southern Europ}e, particularly northern Italy and southern France, between the 12th and 14th centuries

Please reference your statement that the laity were discouraged from reading owning etc a Bible?

I was primarily referencing the fact that Bibles, prior to the creation of the Guttenberg press, were simply not available to the laity. Bibles were extremely expenisve to produce, since they were copied from manuscripts by hand, usually in monasteries, by candlelight or lamplight. They took months and years to produce and the average person, especially in midevil europe, not only could not read, but could never afford one.

Contrary to the propoganda given out by many anti-catholics, they were chained to the lectern in the Church for safety reasons, not to keep them away from the laity.

Have you attended a Catholic Mass?

Do you think that would change my perception of the timeline of historical events?

 

[steido01]

Actually I remember two months ago House was telling
me: Luther was NOT mentally ill, emotionally disturbed,
prejudiced toward Jews, these were all unprovable lies about
Luther made by the Church. That Luther only suffered from
and I quote: “justifiable depression probably caused
by the terrible attacks he suffered from the Church-in fact
in fear for his life.”

For House to even admit Luther was flawed at all
is remarkable progress lol.

That’s an uncharitable and unfair attack, and you know it. HH has never claimed that Luther was sinless - no Lutheran ever has. All humans are sinful - Luther, every single pope, you, me and every one of us on these boards.

 

[steido01]

Yes… It works very well, actually. It is easy to tell an orthodox congregation, as they pray for the successor of Peter in the liturgy. It is also easy to tell when persons or congregations such as those you describe above have departed from Catholicity and the unity of the One Faith. I agree, it is more virtue to leave when one has chosen to be in rebellion, or at the least, disagreement than to cling to a name that describes something one is not.

Precisely my point, friend. We are bound to the teachings of our respective communions, and our teaching authorities do just fine for our respective communions. Topper’s point was not so understanding of this fact. If he wants to blame our leadership for any fracturing, then logically he must blame his own leadership for failing to stop the initial fracture (and all subsequent fractures).

I really have not found many “offensive” Lutherans. The ones I have met here on CAF I greatly admire and have taugtht me a lot.

You are too kind. I could certainly find you some offensive Lutherans if you’d like. With only a few online exceptions, I happily say the same of the Roman Catholics I know (especially my wife!)

But I do find the references about the Pope in the Confessions offensive, but even more so, the other writings of Luther which do not strike me as coming from a saintly heart.

Agreed with some of Luther’s personal views. Thankfully they are not reflected in Lutheran teaching since, as the thread notes, we practice Sola Scriptura - not Sola Luther.

Regarding the wording used about the pope, does it help any to know that our objections to the office of the papacy are listed out methodically in our Confessions, rather than simply tossed out there to name-call? Does it also help that many of our objections to the papacy no longer apply? Just curious.

I would ask the same question of those who choose to call themselves Lutherans that I do of those parties you mentioned above. Why call yourself part of something that has doctrines or beliefs you do not embrace?

If one is Lutheran, they must adhere to our Confessions. Yet regarding the pope, all Lutherans understand our objections to the office of the papacy to be conditional. The question for Lutherans is whether these conditions still apply. And until our synods rule that the they do not, we continue to teach that at least some do.

 

[spina1953]

Mary after reading the exchange below I’d like to comment.
EvangelCatholic is correct. I started this thread in order to have a discussion with Jon about the fact that I say that Lutherans do not believe in sola scriptura. The topic was meant to be Lutheran specific. I believe that this has been established here.

Annie

“My question was: a few examples of Protestants
upholding Sacred Tradition. You have told me and
others have told me not to lump Lutherans with
other Protestants. That you are not in fact Protestants.
And now you answer my question about Protestants
with a link to Lutheran Catholic dialogues.”

“Which is it then? Are you or are you not Protestant?
Do you consider yourself a Protestant?
Why should I NOT lump all Protestants together with
Lutherans if you yourself consider Lutherans to be
Protestants?”

Hi Annie 39: I have read your posts since the beginning of this thread and correct me if I am wrong but so far I have not recall or seen anything about what sacred traditions Lutheran’s hold, so I do not know with any certainty what it is for Lutheran’s traditions. I understand something of what they believe, so I guess that has to suffice.
It seems to me that if one is not Catholic but Christian belonging to a Church or denomination that is outside of the Catholic Church, and does not accept the teaching of the CC than one is protesting thereby being a Protestant. I doubt that one can have it both ways. The Orthodox is in schism, but the Protestant churches are not in schism but have started their own churches and have their own doctrines based upon their SS interpretations and understanding which seems to me or at least appears to be quite different from what the CC teaches.

 

[josie_L]

You mean, like how Roman Catholics point to their Pope? How’s that workin’ out for you so far? I won’t link to them out of respect for forum rules, but how many groups like ‘Catholics for Choice,’ and ‘Progressive Catholics’ exist? Uh-huh. At least the crazies in our denominations have virtue enough to leave.

Of course, they exist, i.e., dissenting Catholics have always existed in one shape or another, i.e., even the Bible records dissent amongst Christians in the early Church. Perfect unity will never exist in the Church, however, the pope is a visible and spiritual rallying point for Catholics (witness the weekly papal assemblies), thus unifying Catholics wherever they may be in the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church of Christ (which is more than can be said about other Christian denominations).

 

[Annie39]

Hi Annie 39: I have read your posts since the beginning of this thread and correct me if I am wrong but so far I have not recall or seen anything about what sacred traditions Lutheran’s hold, so I do not know with any certainty what it is for Lutheran’s traditions. I understand something of what they believe, so I guess that has to suffice.

             It seems to me that if one is not Catholic but Christian belonging to a Church or denomination that is outside of the Catholic Church, and does not accept the teaching of the CC than one is protesting thereby being a Protestant. I doubt that one can have it both ways. The Orthodox is in schism, but the Protestant churches are not in schism but have started their own churches and have their own doctrines based upon their SS interpretations  and understanding which seems to me or at least appears to be quite different from what the CC teaches.

Hello Spina

I could point you to several posts but the latest post by Don will have to suffice due to time constraints. Note that Lutherans must adhere to their Confessions. That is Tradition. Also note that until their synods rule that the do not apply the lay Lutherans must continue to teach which demonstrates that they also have their magisterium. Please note Don’s quote below.

Annie

“If one is Lutheran, they must adhere to our Confessions. Yet regarding the pope, all Lutherans understand our objections to the office of the papacy to be conditional. The question for Lutherans is whether these conditions still apply. And until our synods rule that the they do not, we continue to teach that at least some do.”

---

Don

 

[spina1953]

Hello Spina

I could point you to several posts but the latest post by Don will have to suffice due to time constraints. Note that Lutherans must adhere to their Confessions. That is Tradition. Also note that until their synods rule that the do not apply the lay Lutherans must continue to teach which demonstrates that they also have their magisterium. Please note Don’s quote below.

Annie

“If one is Lutheran, they must adhere to our Confessions. Yet regarding the pope, all Lutherans understand our objections to the office of the papacy to be conditional. The question for Lutherans is whether these conditions still apply. And until our synods rule that the they do not, we continue to teach that at least some do.”

---

Don

Hi Annie39: Thanks for the reply. I was not aware of posts by Don, but I do agree with you as to what you are saying. So, you are saying that adhering to the confessions is tradition? I thought that it was a formula of a confession of faith, a declaration of what one believes or is to believe, not a tradition since it was by Luther who started his own church, so are you saying that Luther created his own tradition or am I missing something?

I do understand the quote you gave as to what it is to be Lutheran. This sure sets one apart between Lutheran’s and Catholic’s, even though some have said that the writings are archaic and really do not reflect what modern Lutheran’s believe. it that correct in your view? Thanks Annie