Not praying to Jesus

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I am sure there is a logical explanation to this, and I am hoping someone can clarify.

On two separate occasions, I have attended Catholic “events” that never bothered to say any prayers to Jesus.

Once at an Opus Dei “thing” We had a couple of lay speakers and then a presentation by a preist. We said numerous Hail Marys and ended each with a Saint so and so pray for us. But never once did we say any prayer directly to Jesus.

Also, at our Bible study, which is also Catholic, we will occasionally start with a Hail, Holy Queen (I think that was what it was) and end with a Hail Mary. Yet again, no prayers to Jesus.

As a protestant, trying very hard to learn so I can teach my children, I am having a hard time with this. I have been told numerous times, prayers to Mary and the Saints is just like asking my friend to pray for me. Great, no problem with that. But using that analogy, I would never attend a bible study and just call up a friend and ask them to pray for us, never bothering to pray ourselves. It seems like we are leaving Jesus out of our bible study and instead just requesting other people to speak to Him for us.

Does this make any sense? If so, can someone clarify it for me.

Like I said, I don’t mind praying to the Saints, but when we forget to also pray to Jesus ourselves, I feel like we our leaving Him out.

Care to share a different perspective?

God Bless,

Ryan’s Wife
 
How many Catholic “things” have you attended where Jesus WAS the center of prayer? Like, for example, the Mass?
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So there were some prayers that didn’t specifically mention Jesus. Did the events that the prayers “hemmed in” focus on Jesus? I feel fairly confident in assuming that the talks and the bible study mentioned Our Lord a time or two. Maybe even focused on them. Was the Sign of the Cross made? That’s a prayer to Jesus. And the Father. And the Holy Spirit.

Yes. Not every Catholic prayer is “specifically addressed” to Jesus. But not every Protestant prayer is, either.

FMS
 
Hi,

That would concern me as well. I’m not saying that it is right or wrong, just that it would concern me.

Have you thought about leading a prayer yourself? Or maybe speaking to the person leading the Bible study and asking if the Our Father could be recited? I know that it could be difficult to take the lead on something like that, so maybe it would be easier to speak to the group leader in private.

Good luck!

Eric
 
What was the topic upon which the Opus Dei speakers and priest spoke? Bet it wasn’t Mary.

And what about the fact that you were studying THE BIBLE - THE WORD! Jesus Himself, more precisely, since He is the Word. That in itself WAS your prayer to Jesus.

Seems to me you’re obsessing about the peripherals (one or two prayers said before or after more important tasks) as opposed to the central event in each case. Which was probably something entirely Christ-centred.
 
This sounds strange. Jesus should be the main focus and centre of all prayer. Jesus is the one mediator between God and man; no one gets to God without Jesus.

Praying to the saints is a good thing and is to be encouraged. However, these prayers should never replace actual prayers to Jesus.

Even the rosary, being a marian prayer, is entirely Christo-centric. When praying the rosary, our minds are focused intensley on the life and person of Jesus Christ. In the same way, when asking for intercession from the Saints, I think it is important to be mindful of Jesus at all times.

If this is bothering you, I would suggest that you lead the prayers. The very least you could do is voice your concerns and ask that more attention be paid to Jesus. I’m sure that all good Catholics would never object to this. After all, Jesus should be the most important person in our lives; we are nothing without him.
 
Ryan’s wife:
Perhaps you have forgotten that the “Hail Mary” contains the following? “Blessed are you among women, and blest is the fruit of your womb, JESUS”.

I know it is hard for you as you certainly have your own protestant faith experience and even the kindest, sweetest, most ‘inclusive’ protestants in the world have absorbed, usually without even realizing it, a ‘type’ of antiCatholicism. Oh, they are kind enough to admit Catholics are Christian (if somewhat ‘misguided’), and it is ‘kindness’ (they think) when they (the protestants) ‘notice’ that the Catholics are just not giving the ‘right emphasis to Jesus’, to ‘question’ said Catholics. Surely those Catholics will ‘reassure’ them, and cluck at the ‘over the top’ actions of ‘some’ Catholics.

(For the record, my own family background is very mixed, Protestant and Catholic, so believe me I know ‘both sides’, as some relatives have ‘flopped’ and have given verification to these ruminations. Again, let me repeat I know that the MOTIVE behind questions like yours really stems from what you truly believe is kindness and concern.)

But until we Catholics can truly be united as once we were, these concerns of yours and others will continue

Because --and this may surprise you–it is the Catholics who ‘cluck’ at the ‘over the top’ gestures and who tell you that you are “right” to question the ‘wrong focus’ who are the problem, not the ones who are doing those gestures and prayers you question. Unfortunately, in a spirit of indiscriminatory pseudounity, some Catholics are doing exactly the same thing you are doing–responding to a ‘concern’ with what you (and they) THINK is ‘love and kindness’. Your ‘love and kindness’ finds fault with Catholicism which differs from your protestant INTERPRETATION of what SHOULD BE. THEIR ‘love and kindness’ idea is to find a ‘communion’ or ‘unity’ with you by AGREEING with you, because they think your feelings might be ‘hurt’, or because they have themselves (in this very Protestant America) have themselves inculcated the relativistic, indifferentist beliefs that have inundated our world in the last century and more.

So I’m here to tell you, even though it might seem like I’m finding fault with you (and I’m not really; thing is, by YOUR ‘finding fault’ with ‘Catholic practice’ and my having to tell you that you are mistaken, it LOOKS like I’m finding fault. Your original ‘concern’ has led me to DEFEND my Church, and unfortunately in today’s climate, any ‘defense’ is perceived as OFFENSIVE even if it is rooted in truth and love)—every prayer, every honor, every action that we Catholics do, say, and profess is MEANT TO BE for God (the Trinity, Father, Son, and Spirit). That some Catholics may ‘fail’ in their prayers etc. does not mean the prayers, honors and actions are wrong, though.

IOW, just because any person may ‘think’ that hearing a Hail Mary from a Catholic ‘instead of’ X numbers of “Jesus” means we AREN’T PRAYING TO JESUS doesn’t make it so.

We aren’t ‘shorting Jesus’ by prayer to Mary or the saints. (We aren’t shorting the Father or the Spirit either even though you didn’t mention them specifically in the OP). Because some early Protestants ‘broke’ the age old Christian tradition of the communion of saints and began to focus instead on a ‘individualistic ALONE’ experience, sometimes called, “Me and Jesus”, many wonderful protestants 500 years on have inculcated this type of belief and have lost out on (now) 2000 years of Christian practice and understanding of just ‘who’ the saints and Mary are, and how they are related to Jesus. for you right now, experiencing discomfort as Catholic teaching ‘contradicts’ your interpretation, with you NOT believing the Catholic teaching, is going to cause you to ‘question’ more and more, UNLESS you make a conscious effort to say, "OK, as a Protestant I believe X, and Catholics are teaching Y. So instead of making a fuss about Catholics not doing X, let me see if maybe their Y isn’t actually my X with something extra, which may be something I don’t personally do but is not incompatible with Christian teaching. "

Prayer to Mary and the Saints (Y) is ULTIMATELY your prayer to Jesus (X) done in a more ‘inclusive’ way. Not contradictory at all.
 
RyanL's Wife;. We said numerous Hail Marys and ended each with a Saint so and so pray for us. But never once did we say any prayer directly to Jesus.:
may I ask if, in your own church, you often gather together to pray with members of the congregation. do you routinely ask for prayers for needs of members, and lift them up as a group. Do you feel that by asking your pastor to pray for you and with you, you are therefore bypassing Jesus? To whom will the pastor or the rest of the congregation pray to in your behalf? to Jesus of course. Praying with Mary and the saints, and asking them to pray for you and with you is precisely the same as praying with your own pastor and members of your congregation, or of any group you are with, and asking them to pray for you and with you. All of the prayers are directed to Jesus.

If I say “Ryan, Ryan’s wife, would you please pray for me at this time if illness, trial, or pray for my daughter” or whatever need, you will say “of course” or even “shall we pray together now”. By asking you I did not bypass Jesus. I know perfectly well your prayer will be addressed to Jesus, even if you pray after I leave the room. I don’t even have to hear you say it.

You might often begin a prayer with “Please lift up Annie” and even without using His Holy Name, we all know you are praying to Jesus.

Same with Mary and the saints. It is impossible for them to pray with us and for us in any other way except to, in and through Jesus, with the Holy Spirit, to the Father. Do bear in mind that Catholic prayer traditionally begins and ends this way, with the Sign of the Cross and this invocation of the Trinity, precisely because all prayer, without exception, offered by Catholics, formally in Mass, sacraments and other rites, in private devotions prayed alone or in a group, or informal prayer, is offered to, in and through Jesus, with the Holy Spirit, to the Father. All.
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Howdy, ya’ll!

The hubby here. Here’s what you’ve got to know before you go any further:

(1) Don’t waste your time defending prayer to the Saints. My wife gets it and is cool with it. Same goes with the “one mediator” argument – she doesn’t use it 'cuz she “gets” the communion of saints.

(2) Don’t be snotty. Catholics are, for most folks, the biggest obstacle to becoming Catholic. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Speak charitably, please, affording to her only the best motives/intentions.

(3) My wife is ***currently ***discerning conversion, so please don’t question her motives. She’s not trying to start an argument and in fact doesn’t want anything to do with debates. Don’t bother. She’s not trying to undermine your faith or mis-portray Holy Mother Church. Don’t accuse.

(4) The Bible Study is Full of Grace, and is somewhat Marian (which likely explains the Hail Marys). The women in the study are mostly converts with some cradle Catholics thrown in, and they’re a pious and holy bunch.

She asked me (a fairly Marian fella’ myself) about all this and I said I would have expected them to say the Angelus or at least a Glory Be. I didn’t have any good explanation for her so she’s turning here. If you have further questions about either of us, please check our post histories.

Please be kind and offer whatever thoughts / advice you have. I’d appreciate it very much.

God Bless,
RyanL

P.S.,
Good post, puzzleannie! 👍😃
 
RyanL said:
(2) Don’t be snotty. Catholics are, for most folks, the biggest obstacle to becoming Catholic. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Speak charitably, please, affording to her only the best motives/intentions.
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I don’t see anyone being “snotty” here. Like a previous poster mentioned, the very nature of your wife’s post puts Catholics on the defensive. There are going to be people who don’t see anything wrong with the scenario described, and will say so.

As for your comment about being charitable, perhaps you should follow your own advice when stating that “Catholics are, for most folks, the biggest obstacle to becoming Catholic.”

FMS
 
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puzzleannie:
If I say “Ryan, Ryan’s wife, would you please pray for me at this time if illness, trial, or pray for my daughter” or whatever need, you will say “of course” or even “shall we pray together now”. By asking you I did not bypass Jesus. I know perfectly well your prayer will be addressed to Jesus, even if you pray after I leave the room. I don’t even have to hear you say it.
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Of course, this is true. But would you just ask us for prayer and not bother to pray for your daughter yourself as well? This is my concern. I have no problem asking for pray from others, including the saints. However, I don’t understand why we wouldn’t want to reach out to Christ directly ourselves.
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puzzleannie:
Same with Mary and the saints. It is impossible for them to pray with us and for us in any other way except to, in and through Jesus, with the Holy Spirit, to the Father. Do bear in mind that Catholic prayer traditionally begins and ends this way, with the Sign of the Cross and this invocation of the Trinity, precisely because all prayer… is offered to, in and through Jesus, with the Holy Spirit, to the Father. All.
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Someone else mentioned something similar which I would like to ask about, if you don’t mind, Annie. It is something I have been trying to understand and this may answer my initial question if someone can clarify. We always start the Hail Mary and other prayers with the sign of the cross. I didn’t understand this, why would we pray in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, if we are just asking some one (in this particular case, Mary) to pray for us. This part doesn’t make sense.

Also, As many have stated, and I have heard before, the sign of the cross is a prayer itself. How exactly? If one merely says, “in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost”, What exactly is one praying for? There is no praising, thanking, asking… obviously I don’t get it. How is the sign of the cross, by itself a prayer?

And for those of you who are defensive, I am sorry if my questions make you defensive. The are asked strictly for clarification and understanding. I was merely asking for another perspective or better understanding in hopes that there was something I was missing. I just wanted an explanation of why this might be okay. No ulterior motives here.
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Feedmysheep:
I don’t see anyone being “snotty” here. Like a previous poster mentioned, the very nature of your wife’s post puts Catholics on the defensive. There are going to be people who don’t see anything wrong with the scenario described, and will say so.
As for your comment about being charitable, perhaps you should follow your own advice when stating that “Catholics are, for most folks, the biggest obstacle to becoming Catholic.”
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As for my husband’s post. (Thank you Honey) He posted this for a reason. Every time I get on here, people start questioning my motives and insist I have other reasons for asking such questions. Frankly, It irritates me to no end. Which is why I haven’t posted for months and months. (I thought staying away from this site might help) And while it is not my biggest obstacle, unfortunately he is right., Some Catholics have and do turn me away from wanting to be Catholic. (whether it should or not is another story, but that doesn’t make it any less true)

Thank you for those who have tried to help. I will try to answer any questions you posed, as soon as I can.

God Bless,
RyanL’s Wife
 
LilyM said:
What was the topic upon which the Opus Dei speakers and priest spoke? Bet it wasn’t Mary.

And what about the fact that you were studying THE BIBLE - THE WORD! Jesus Himself, more precisely, since He is the Word. That in itself WAS your prayer to Jesus.

Seems to me you’re obsessing about the peripherals (one or two prayers said before or after more important tasks) as opposed to the central event in each case. Which was probably something entirely Christ-centred.
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The topic was on Mothers and how to raise good, Catholic families. And yes, Mary was a main topic, as she should be, seeing as she was the mother of our Lord.

Yes, we were studying the Bible. Yes, Jesus is Central in everything… Mass, the Rosery, everything. But I don’t think that lessens the importance of prayer? Maybe I am obsessing about it, but why wouldn’t we want to ask Jesus to help us understand our study. To help us gain knowledge and love for Him? I just can’t see starting a Bible study without asking Him for his guidance and help. At the end of our study, when we go through our prayer requests for friends and family. Why wouldn’t we want to ask Jesus for their healing and protections? Like I said, I think it is great to ask Mary for her prayers, I just think we should pray to our Lord ourselves as well. But you are correct, my focus should and will be on the central topic…Christ himself.

Of course, all this is beside the point if somehow our petitions to Mary are also prayers to Our Lord. Which I think is what some of the previous posters are saying. I will admit, I don’t get that. But, if that is the case, I just need clarity on that.

Thank you for your insight.
God Bless,

RyanL’s Wife
 
RyanL’s Wife,

you’ve got the right idea that prayers to saints are really prayers to the Lord in some way. And you’ve probably also got the right idea that you don’t get it :). I say this because its the sort of thing that, in my experience, people don’t “get” until they’ve been Catholic for a while, or for cradle Catholics, until they really end up considering the issue for a while. This was true of me as well. I came into the Church in 2005, and I, like you, accepted prayers to the saints and Mary, accepted all the Marian stuff, but still in practice there was a certain degree of Marian piety that I was still uncomfortable with.

The reason for this is, I think, that it’s based on some very advanced theological concepts. The thing is, unlike in [much of] Protestantism, Catholicism is so organic a faith that literally everything is deeply tied to everything else. You can’t seperate this from that, as Protestants often do. My point is that theology in Catholicism is not merely theoretical - that is, not merely about God academically, but it truly is and stems from and leads to (all at once) the actual practice of the faith. Talk to anyone that’s been studying the Summa Theologiae for a while and they’ll tell you that they don’t just get knowledge from it, but in some way - as cold and technical as it is - they get some sort of increase in their spiritual life as well. It’s amazing.

Another way of putting this is to say that the Catholic faith is true, which means that the theological truths it teaches are a part of the fabric of reality, a part of the fabric of who we all really are as human beings and creatures of God, and so the more one prays and leads a spiritual life focused, the more one begins to recognize all the truths of the world and of themselves that underly every moment and aspect of existence. It’s sortof like those movies where they show you all the stuff that’s really going on in nature at every moment all around you but you never notice, except a lot less gross 👍 .

Now, so far as your specific question, that underlying reality that really matters is that everything that we have - even our mere existence - is just some way in which we are sharing in God. It is really God’s own existence that in a certain way we participate in, as theologians say. That’s why we have existence. It’s ours, but it’s also God’s. Yet it’s not in a pantheistic way, as if everything in existence isGod, either.

I’m sure you’re familiar with 2 Peter 1:4, where it says that through Christ we are made partakers of the Divine Nature. What he’s talking about is the concept of Divination, or Theosis as they call it in the east, which means that through Christ, we in some way share in what it is to be God. Athanasius, for instance, said in one of my favorite quotes, “By the participation of the Spirit, we are knit into the Godhead.” This was the center of the faith in the early Church. It was everywhere, and every doctrine - even ones that seem so completely unrelated - were understood around the framework of it.

Now basically, Heaven is to participate in God’s existence to the fullest extent that a creature can. That’s what 2 Peter 1:4 is talking about. Hell, on the other hand, is to participate in God’s existence to the least degree a creature can - to participate in existence alone, and have nothing else at all. Those in Hell suffer so much because they exist, but that’s all. Everyone’s experienced a moment in their life where they feel like they’re just existing and that’s all, and it’s absolutely miserable. Hell is like that, except people who feel that way aren’t even close to just existing and really have so much more - so imagine how terrible Hell is!

But Heaven is to participate more and more and more and more in God. It is to have more and more of what He has. We can never, ever become God, because we can never have existence in and of ourselves - that’s what God has. But we can have nearly everything else that God has, not because we deserve it, but because He gives it to us. The first time I heard this it sounded crazy, but the thing is, we only exist by literally sharing that which is God’s, His existence. For God to share with us any other part of Himself is no different. It’s all just God giving to us that which is His, whether its existence, which we all have, or something more. So those who object to concepts of the saints having different “powers” or whatnot really have no ground to stand on. For a saint to have the “power” to bilocate, for instance, isn’t any different from me having the “power” to exist and sit on my couch! The only difference is that that saint has become more open to God and shares more in God than I do.

see next post…
 
…from last post

The key to remember in all of this, though, is that that which we share in of God is not something that God creates, that is, something that He makes to give us that is like what He has. That’s not possible, because He is all that really is at all. While those who do object to the saints “powers” are wrong in the way I mentioned above, they’re actually correct at the same time because their reason for it is that only God has these things. And it’s true! When I exist, or when a person speaks in tongues, or when Padre Pio bilocated, it is literally God doing that in us. It’s not some power that is like God, but it is God. If it were something else, that would mean something existed on its own apart from God.

So when I am talking to you, RyanL’s Wife, I am talking to God in a certain sense, because you exist by virtue of sharing God’s existence. Now when I talk to a baptized Christian, I am talking to God in an even fuller sense, because that person by virtue of baptism shares in more of God. This is why Christ said that what we do to the least of his brother’s, we do to Him. It’s true! It’s why St. Paul said that it was no longer him living, but Christ who lives in him. To become more and more holy is simply to become more and more a partaker in God Himself.

So Mary up in Heaven, who partook of God more than anyone, was so emptied of “Mary” and so full of God that when we talk to her, we really are talking so directly to God, even though we’re also talking to the human being Mary. Same goes for any other saint, just to a lesser degree as they were not as holy as she and participated in God to different degrees.

It’s the same as with good works. The Council of Trent taught that the good works of a Christian are really the good works of the Holy Spirit living in the Christian, but in some mysterious sense that they are also the good works of the Christian at the same time. It’s that Catholic “both/and” that everyone talks about. And it hints at that tremendous underlying reality to everything, namely, that everything that exists really is all at once both itself and God. It is itself, but it is God’s own existence that it shares. This is one of those things we’re never going to come close to grasping until we see God face to face.

So when we pray to Mary or to any saint, we’re talking to them, but we’re also talking to God, in the same way as when I talk to you or as when I feed my homeless brother. Yet we’re also talking to God through them in an even deeper sense, because they share in God so, so deeply. They are so emptied of self and so full of God - so participating in God. Furthermore, you’re praying - you’re asking for Divine favors. That’s what God does, and in asking them to grant these through their intercession, you’re appealing to the Divine in them that they have become partakers of. So you’re speaking to God, even though you’re speaking to a human being, just like when I feed a human being I’m feeding Christ, but in a greater sense.

Now, I don’t imagine that the people at these events considered all this. It’s possible that just living the Catholic life led them, as it so often does, to an unconscious grasp of this aspect of reality such that what they did seemed perfectly great to them. It’s also possible they just weren’t very good Catholics and didn’t care too much about Jesus. You’d be a better judge of that than I would, since you were there. But I bet they cared plenty about Him :p.

I know this is a ton to take at once, but I wanted to try to answer your question as best I could. I also prayed first, so I hope the Holy Spirit worked a little bit here. In any case, God bless.
 
Lazerlike42,

Thank you so much. I will have to think this through a bit. Thank you for the thought and time you put into responding.

God Bless,
RyanL’s Wife
 
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