Not standing for Alleluia, etc. - why?

[Eliza10]

This past week my husband and I attended Mass at a local Abbey where we like to go frequently especially because my husband likes the Mass in Latin. The nuns incorporate part of their holy office psalms in the beginning of the Mass, too. There are various priests who celebrate the Mass. We had gone to Mass locally the past few weeks, so I don’t know if a new pattern has emerged. But this Sunday the priest who gave Mass did not stand for the Kryie, or any of the other times we normally stand, there at the Abbey or any other Catholic Church. The nuns behind the grille did, but* because the priest did not*, he just kept sitting in his chair, and nor did any of the 3 Deacon and subdeacons next to him stand- even though those three normally do stand, when other priests come to celebrate Mass - the congregation did not stand, either. It felt so awkward to me, and I was distracted, wondering, what could the reason possibly be??

But when it came to the Alleluia, I saw a woman a few seats down being to rise, and it firmed my resolve - I did not care who stood or not, but I was going to *stand for the Alleluia, *at least! We came in late, so we had to take a front row seat, and I do not like to draw attention to myself, but when it comes to something like this, a choice between what makes me feel comfortable and what feels like the right thing to do, there is no question. So i stood and my husband stood with me, but then he said, “No -” apparently as he’d looked about and seen everyone else was seated - and as soon as he said that the woman right behind him said in a loud whisper: “Its OKAY!” and he stayed standing with me. (I glanced back gratefully and saw she and her husband were standing and I don’t know who else.)

So now the rest of Mass I am wondering what the reason could possibly be. I watched the old priest - was he limping. hobbling? Not apparently. Perhaps he had great pain standing and sitting. But then I was wondering what medical condition this could be, and how could one cope not being able to stand from a seated position, and if you had difficulty, wouldn’t more use improve the condition? But I doubted he had that problem. I began to think how I was going to ask here on the forum when I got home.

But then as Mass ended I decided the right thing to do was ask him myself. So after Mass, when he was done talking to a nun there, I asked him, saying my question in a low voice, not to be overheard (no one was near), and in his ear, so there was no question what I asked. He immediately said, “I don’t know! I don’t know why they do that here! You’ll have to ask one of the nuns here! Nobody tells me!” My husband was confused by the answer, asking, "“Don’t they prep you for the Mass?” and I was confused, too, but with other questions, like, “No, other priests always stand” but he had said this firmly and walked off to prevent other questions (and he did not answer my husband’s question).

As we walked off I told my husband it seemed that he had that answer prepared for ANY question anyone woudl ever ask for anything he did.

He said the Mass fine but gave the impression of one of those “I’m a great nice personality!” priests instead of one of those pious priests that give you confidence…

So I am wondering, what possible reason could there be for not standing? Truly not just laziness?? Why? And I’m uncomfortable about it. Usually, that turns out to mean something… And would you do any more asking on this?? To whom?

I’d love some suppositions on this…

P.S: The Kyria and the Gloria - for neither of these did the priest and the deacons/subdeacons rise; and the congregation followed suit…

 

[corsair]

Was this an EF or OF Mass? And if EF, was it a low or High Mass?

 

[Eliza10]

Was this an EF or OF Mass? And if EF, was it a low or High Mass?

My husband explains it was a Novus Ordo, low Mass. In Latin, mostly. EF

• oh, yes, that’s extraordinary form. It was not the Tridentine Mass. No incensing this week, but other priests who celebrate Mass there do.

 

[JurisPrudens]

My husband explains it was a Novus Ordo, low Mass. In Latin, mostly. EF

• oh, yes, that’s extraordinary form. It was not the Tridentine Mass. No incensing this week, but other priests who celebrate Mass there do.

So, was it a Novis Ordo or an Extraordinary form ( which is also called Tridentine)?

 

[brandonmorris]

That’ is unusual not to stand for the Alieua I know we do in our Mass. I think low Masses and High Masses has to do something with the pre-Vatican 2 Counicl with how the arrangements for the choir and organ is to be sung and music played. Very old world Catholicism that the modern church has come to appreciate once again

 

[CB_Catholic]

My husband explains it was a Novus Ordo, low Mass. In Latin, mostly. EF

• oh, yes, that’s extraordinary form. It was not the Tridentine Mass. No incensing this week, but other priests who celebrate Mass there do.

The OF (Ordinary Form, which you are calling the Novus Ordo) can be said in Latin, but there is no low Mass in the OF. As for incense, both forms use incense, but it often is omitted in the OF. The EF is the Tridentine Mass. There is no mixing of the forms, no “mostly” EF–it is one or the other, and only the EF has a high and low Mass.

Things don’t seem quite right here, but there are some religious orders that have their own rites. Do you know if this is so and what order of religious this is?

 

[OraLabora]

At our abbey, the alleluia is sung, then a long melismatic verse is sung only by the schola, then the alleluia sung a second time. We rise only for the second alleluia as the deacon and acolyte process to the ambo with the book of Gospels.

Perhaps this was the case here?

As for the apparently elderly priest not standing, I’d let it go. Not all infirmities are readily apparent. One may not be visibly handicapped but as we age we tire much more easily. Be thankful he still willingly carries on with his vocation when most would be long retired.

 

[Eliza10]

So, was it a Novis Ordo or an Extraordinary form ( which is also called Tridentine)?

Novus Ordo. Not extraordinary form. (I just could not figure what “EF” meant at first).

 

[Eliza10]

The OF (Ordinary Form, which you are calling the Novus Ordo) can be said in Latin, but there is no low Mass in the OF. As for incense, both forms use incense, but it often is omitted in the OF. The EF is the Tridentine Mass. There is no mixing of the forms, no “mostly” EF–it is one or the other, and only the EF has a high and low Mass.

Things don’t seem quite right here, but there are some religious orders that have their own rites. Do you know if this is so and what order of religious this is?

It is the Abbey of Regina Laudis in Bethlehem, CT

 

[Neofight]

So other than that, how was the Mass? Did you allow yourself to be so overwrought that you failed to abandon the worldly entrapments for the spiritual pursuit of praising God?

 

[Bonnie]

I knew a priest some years ago who would sit through most of the Mass - he had a heart condition. Everyone else, however, would stand at the appropriate times.

 

[Eliza10]

At our abbey, the alleluia is sung, then a long melismatic verse is sung only by the schola, then the alleluia sung a second time. We rise only for the second alleluia as the deacon and acolyte process to the ambo with the book of Gospels.

Perhaps this was the case here?

As for the apparently elderly priest not standing, I’d let it go. Not all infirmities are readily apparent. One may not be visibly handicapped but as we age we tire much more easily. Be thankful he still willingly carries on with his vocation when most would be long retired.

He didn’t seem to be that old. He did not seem inform. He got everyone’s attention to make a hardy joke to get everyone to laugh before he blessed us at the end of Mass. He sounded very vigorous and loud when he gave his “I don’t know!” speech when I asked him quietly, “why”.

I highly doubt it was infirmity.

I come from a Diocese prior to this where normal Catholic tradition, under the leadership of a longtime bishop, was systematically wiped out. Almost all of the Masses I have been to have been Novus Ordo, since I converted in 2000, so I know when something is different; when it has been purposely changed from what it is supposed to be. For example, in my old Diocese, kneelers were ripped out, Tabernacles were hidden, holding hands for our Father was requested (“Please *join hands *and pray the Our Father…”), priests always sat while the the Eucharistic ministers put things away Holy Communion (and sometimes sat and let the EMs distribute ALL the Holy Communion), remaining standing after the Sanctus was encouraged by the Bishop, and flocks of Eucharistic Ministers enthusiastically passed out communion in his Cathedral, and when questioned about allowing folks to “dip” their host in the wine his priests there woudl have no comment on it, just dismissive evasiveness. So it was clear: the bishop wanted these changes and if you asked about them you woudl not get an answer, you woudl get an “I don’t know” or “ask someone else”.

So this experience reminded me of it this Sunday. I thought it would be polite to ask privately: why, but the answer I got was so familiar. He turned away quickly to close the conversation, and I had asked in a nice way. He did not want to tell me why, and I did not believe the nuns told him not to stand, as he implied (but did not say). Its not plausible. So that the priest might have been dishonest to me after Mass was sort of shocking.

Just because one has white hair doesn’t mean one is infirm. My husbands hair is white and there is nothing wrong with his mind and body.

As I mentioned before and I will state more firmly: I considered that he might be somehow mysteriously infirm even though there was NO sign of it. But that can NOT be the case. Because I asked him and he did NOT say it had anything to do with his health. He said “That’s how they do it here.” So it was not his health. He blamed it on how they do it there, but, that was not true… We go there, so we know its not true.

You might argue, he could have been “confused”. But he did not answering a “confused” way. He answered a very rapid and hardy way, and took charge of the situation by answering in such a vigorous way in a total attitude of “I don’t know” hands raised, repeating that phrase at least 3 times in 3 sentences and turning away abruptly walking rapidly to completely close the subject to any more questions. And he ignored my husband’s question.

Believe me, no one needs to come up with possible excuses. I am really, really good generating excuses and scenarios for how a person did not mean to do/say what they actually did. I thought about this.

As I said, my immediate first thought was that it seemed like a prepared answer. And it was a dismissive one. I know all about prepared, dismissive, answers designed to make the person not ask any more questions, from my old Diocese.

And the more I think on it, I realize it did not seem like a truthful one.

I should add he got out of his chasuble VERY quickly and headed out the door walking very fast on uneven pavement and ground. He was right behind us when we stepped out, which was embarrassing to me because I was still so puzzled and surprised by what he said, but when we reached the end of the short walk he was gone - I think he made a rapid u-turn.

So I am making my case for him not being an elderly infirm man. I cannot make a case for him being dishonest, but it sure felt that way. But I do not want to make that case here. I just want to ask here: Assuming an able-bodied priest would choose to disobey the norms of the Mass, leading the congregation in not standing for precious and beautiful parts of the Mass - what would be the reason? I can only think of laziness, but, he did not seem like a lazy man. So why? Does any one have any ideas? And I also wonder: Has anyone seen this?

 

[Belshazzar]

I’ve been to Benedictine abbeys with no kneelers in the Church/ chapel. Apparently it is the abbot’s decision as far as who, when, and if we kneel, stand, etc. during the liturgy.

Benedictine abbeys will usually discourage the faithful from attending their Masses; they will tell the congregants to find a home parish of which they can be active members. Benedictine priests will not perform marriages or preside over funerals for the public and do not take up a collection during Mass, something many Catholics undoubtedly would find attractive. I find it odd that this particular community actually encourages the public to attend their Mass.

BTW, isn’t Regina Laudis Abbey the home of Mother Dolores Hart?

 

[Eliza10]

I knew a priest some years ago who would sit through most of the Mass - he had a heart condition. Everyone else, however, would stand at the appropriate times.

If he had sat while his group of Deacons and Subdeacons flaking him had stood, this woudl be plausible. The SAME group of Deacons and Subdeacons EVERY OTHER week stand at the Kyrie, the Gloria, and the Alleluia.

I really don’t need excuses generated for him. I am really good myself at generating lots of creative excuses for people. I considered lots of them throughout the Mass, but I realized in fact they were pretty implausible, and I felt pretty right about going with my intuition and the possibility that things might actually be what they seem to be sometimes. So now I am coming here with the question: Assuming he did it on purpose (since I think its a good chance he did): WHY?

And WHY would the Deacons and Subdeacons, who every week lead us in standing, not stand this week??? Why wouldn’t THEY do what you did here, and assume the priest was mysteriously infirm or had an undisclosed heart condition, and *stand like they always do? *That is confusing, because the priest said, “I don’t know why they do that here!”. But its not whats done there. Why would all three do it differently if they had not been told to do it different this week beforehand?

 

[Eliza10]

I’ve been to Benedictine abbeys with no kneelers in the Church/ chapel. Apparently it is the abbot’s decision as far as who, when, and if we kneel, stand, etc. during the liturgy.

Benedictine abbeys will usually discourage the faithful from attending their Masses; they will tell the congregants to find a home parish of which they can be active members. Benedictine priests will not perform marriages or preside over funerals for the public and do not take up a collection during Mass, something many Catholics undoubtedly would find attractive. I find it odd that this particular community actually encourages the public to attend their Mass.

BTW, isn’t Regina Laudis Abbey the home of Mother Dolores Hart?

Yes, it is. There is no question as to the nuns practices, at all. I think because they take vows of obedience they do not question the various priests who come to celebrate Sunday Mass. My question is about this one priest’s choice this particular week. I am puzzled.

I did not know that about Benedictines encouraging public not to go to their Masses. Many people there know each other but I haven’t figured out how they get to know each other. I myself have always seen Abbeys and Monasteries as welcoming people to come to their Masses, no matter how cloistered they are, so, it does not seem odd to me. They certainly don’t advertise. We just heard they were nearby, and looked them up and went to a Mass, and since my husband likes Latin we were so glad to see that it was all in Latin and frequently go back. It seemed holier than our local Mass, which substituted the Apostles Creed for the Nicene Creed and the hymns were folk songs to a guitar about “we the people!”. (Its improved with a new priest!). The nearest other Latin Mass is really too far for regular attendance (New Haven).

 

[Isca]

Come to Italy - some sit, some stand, some kneel … it’s all acceptable.

 

[CB_Catholic]

It is the Abbey of Regina Laudis in Bethlehem, CT

I went to that website, it is very nice. Perhaps, to satisfy your curiosity, you could write to them and ask about the practice. That is much better than trying to second-guess the priest and perhaps coming to a false conclusion of some type.

From one of the posters here who is a Benedictine Oblate, I know that they do things a bit differently as to posture and action, but the Mass is the OF of the Roman Rite. That’s why I think writing to them would clear things up.

Also, I thought the order of Subdeacons no longer existed in the Roman Rite except for the EF. Instead there are Readers and Acolytes, but I don’t know if exception is made for monasteries.

 

[ProVobis]

… and nor did any of the 3 Deacon and subdeacons next to him stand-

Just out of curiosity, how did the subdeacons get involved in an OF Mass?

 

[AngelusDomini]

Come to Italy - some sit, some stand, some kneel … it’s all acceptable.

I wish more people took this into consideration. There are many cultural differences that could be a work. In some parts of Africa it is traditional to sit during the Gospel as it is the position taken for learning something of importance and seen as a ‘passive’ stance.

One of the most weird things for me upon attending a Catholic Church for the first time was sitting during the offertory hymn. In the Anglican Church we stood (which is also the best position to take if one is singing and offering worship in the form of song).

As long as there is nothing which is detracting from the Mass or attracting attention, deliberately, to oneself I think it should all be acceptable.

 

[OraLabora]

I’ve been to Benedictine abbeys with no kneelers in the Church/ chapel. Apparently it is the abbot’s decision as far as who, when, and if we kneel, stand, etc. during the liturgy.

Benedictine abbeys will usually discourage the faithful from attending their Masses; they will tell the congregants to find a home parish of which they can be active members. Benedictine priests will not perform marriages or preside over funerals for the public and do not take up a collection during Mass, something many Catholics undoubtedly would find attractive. I find it odd that this particular community actually encourages the public to attend their Mass.

BTW, isn’t Regina Laudis Abbey the home of Mother Dolores Hart?

I’ve never been to a Benedictine abbey that discourages the faithful to attend their Mass, and I’ve been to many here and in Europe. All made everyone feel very welcome. It’s the heart of Benedictine spirituality to welcome all as if Christ Himself was walking through the door. Our abbey church is full every Sunday unless there’s a snowstorm! (it’s a 45 minute drive from the nearest city).

However, a Benedictine abbey is not a parish. They do not perform weddings, baptisms, etc., because they are of pontifical right, and don’t have faculties in the local diocese to perform baptisms or weddings, or preside at funerals of the laity. However, Benedictine monks who are also priests will sometimes preside at funerals of close family members if the abbot gives permission, but not at the abbey, rather in the diocese of the deceased.

They do not take collections at Mass but do have an offering box at the back of the church.

The abbot does have authority and jurisdiction in his church as you point out and in fact is the ordinary of the abbey (meaning almost the same authority as a bishop except for ordaining) as does the abbess of Benedictine nuns. The abbot will dictate the postures his community adopts; for example for communion, the monks receive standing and in the hand. But the faithful can receive kneeling or on the tongue if they desire. Most of us in the nave do follow what the monks do, to the extent possible. The Mass is Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, and any Benedictine adaptations are limited to things like posture and music, processions, etc. The Mass follows the Gregorian Missal though, which means Gregorian chant, a Gradual response instead of responsorial psalm, etc.