Not supporting Israel

[JimR-OCDS]

I never said the Iranians were Arabs.

Didn’t say you did, but wanted people to understand correctly.

Jim

 

[april32010]

You mean the man who, as a college student, helped hold American citizens hostage for 444 days? This is the man that you admire?

cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol48no2/article10.html#fn4

At an NSC meeting in early 1953, President Dwight Eisenhower said "it was a matter of great distress to him that we seemed unable to get some of these down-trodden countries to like us instead of hating us."1 The problem has likewise distressed all administrations since, and is emerging as the core conundrum of American policy in Iraq. In All the Shah’s Men, Stephen Kinzer of the New York Times suggests that the explanation may lie next door in Iran, where the CIA carried out its first successful regime-change operation over half a century ago. The target was not an oppressive Soviet puppet but a democratically elected government whose populist ideology and nationalist fervor threatened Western economic and geopolitical interests. The CIA’s covert intervention—codenamed TPAJAX—preserved the Shah’s power and protected Western control of a hugely lucrative oil infrastructure. It also transformed a turbulent constitutional monarchy into an absolutist kingship and induced a succession of unintended consequences at least as far ahead as the Islamic revolution of 1979—and, Kinzer argues in his breezily written, well-researched popular history, perhaps to today.

British colonialism faced its last stand in 1951 when the Iranian parliament nationalized the sprawling Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (AIOC) after London refused to modify the firm’s exploitative concession.

yeah,folks get a little testy when you orchestrate a overthrow of their government

 

[april32010]

israelshamir.net/index.htm

Andre Pshenichnikov (24) is a most unusual kid. So unusual that he is languishing in Egyptian jail for crossing the border without proper papers. But his story begins earlier. I first heard of him when this young programmer from a Tel Aviv suburb stayed in Deheishe refugee camp near Bethlehem in the occupied West Bank. He did not go there to explore Palestinian way of life, or to write for a newspaper; he was not looking for publicity, he did not hide nor emphasize his Israeli identity. He did not act as an activist, marching at demos and enjoying popularity. He just rented a room, worked at a building site or waited tables in a tourist restaurant just like any Palestinian youth of his age in Deheishe, lived with ordinary people on his salary.

Andre did the impossible. He crossed the biggest chasm there is. Imagine a white boy from Philly, picking cotton and living with blacks in a cabin on a Mississippi plantation in the days of Jim Crow. No Freedom Rider went that far. He broke an important taboo: so many Israelis are convinced that the Palestinians would kill them on sight, at first occasion. By his example he refuted this fantasy. He renounced apartheid personally by living with Palestinians.

 

[Norm640]

Ah, dear troll, stop trying to stir up arguments based on your hatred of Israel. Iran is the most evil spot in the world, well, right next to an abortionists operating table.

Hello friends,

I am sorry if I posted this in the wrong forum area. But I wanted to ask if there is a moral obligation to blindly support Israel when you are Catholic.I do not believe in superstition in the bible about nations who stand against Israel either. 
   I feel that Israel is a drain on american tax payers and an illegal occupation. I am not Jewish, so there is no "covenant" between me and God for Israel, I actually am a large admirer of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran, and I support many of his views. 

  Do you  support Israel ? if so Why ? Do you feel it is a moral obligation to do so as a Christian/ Catholic ? Just wanting some feed back.

best regards to you all.

 

[april32010]

leaving iran out of the discussion, Catholics are not obligated to support the state of israel .there is no doctrine,dogma or Magisterial Teaching that calls for obedience to the neocon groveling support of a zionist state

 

[april32010]

The current administration is harming Israel on purpose big time. That’s why I never voted for the current administration. Somewhere in the Bible said those who bless Israel will be blessed those curse Israel will be cursed. Cannot remember exactly where in the Bible.

you do know that the One , Holy, Apostolic,Catholic Church is the New Israel ?

 

[dedo]

I support Israel.

I do not support anyone who exhorts genocide including the former leader of Iran.

The lesson of the 20th Century is that we must take people who exhort genocide and its precursors (hate speech) seriously because such people are capable of acting on their beliefs if given the chance.

 

[Yetzirah]

The historybooks will be harsh on the americans and israelis… Of that I’m certain…

Iran was being ruled by colonial masters. They rose up and took control of their nation. One might disagree with islamic rule but that’s the fact of what happened.

It’s an american phenomenon. But it’s also a good measure on just how much catholicism has been protestantized in america. According to the catholic and Orthodox church (as well as all other churches except american dispensationalists) Israel is the church before christ and the new Israel is the church.

In Europe - Israel is viewed as the biggest threat to world peace

 

[Kount_C]

Ah, dear troll, stop trying to stir up arguments based on your hatred of Israel. Iran is the most evil spot in the world, well, right next to an abortionists operating table.

I’m not trolling. You can’t deny the absolute confidence that the former president of Iran Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has when he does not bow down to western liberal media agendas. I Admire him for that the man is an alpha male.

The USA spends 8.5 million dollars a day! American tax money that is printed out to aid israel’s defense. For what? What concern do I have over their saftey? What is israel going to do for the average American tax payer that American innovation and enginuity has never accomplished. Why do American tax payers never get an annual letter from the president of Israel thanking us for helping him have his own country.

Lets take just 1/4 of the money spent every year and give some scholorships out to working single mothers to be able to get an education and child care? Or dental work for the homeless, Lets take 50% of the gross annual aid and build some community colleges that offer 4 year degrees. This is why I was an advent Ron Paul supporter. What exactuly is Israel going to do for me being an “Ally” to the USA? The only people that concenrns are Ivy League goverment bureaucrats.
With all due respect to those whom I disagree with, lets take care of our own

Respectful regards to you all.

Kount C

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I’m not trolling. You can’t deny the absolute confidence that the former president of Iran Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has when he does not bow down to western liberal media agendas. I Admire him for that the man is an alpha male.

The USA spends 8.5 million dollars a day! American tax money that is printed out to aid israel’s defense. For what? What concern do I have over their saftey? What is israel going to do for the average American tax payer that American innovation and enginuity has never accomplished. Why do American tax payers never get an annual letter from the president of Israel thanking us for helping him have his own country.

Lets take just 1/4 of the money spent every year and give some scholorships out to working single mothers to be able to get an education and child care? Or dental work for the homeless, Lets take 50% of the gross annual aid and build some community colleges that offer 4 year degrees. This is why I was an advent Ron Paul supporter. What exactuly is Israel going to do for me being an “Ally” to the USA? The only people that concenrns are Ivy League goverment bureaucrats.
With all due respect to those whom I disagree with, lets take care of our own

Respectful regards to you all.

Kount C

I agree very much, but to a point.

I would support supporting Israel should any nation preemptively attack them and they asked for our help, of which if they did not get, they would be destroyed.

Lets face it, the enemies of Israel, if they ever did take down the state of Israel, would be most cruel leaders toward Christians, Jews and non-Muslims as they’ve exhibited in Islamic nations.

Jim

 

[Kount_C]

I agree very much, but to a point.

I would support supporting Israel should any nation preemptively attack them and they asked for our help, of which if they did not get, they would be destroyed.

Lets face it, the enemies of Israel, if they ever did take down the state of Israel, would be most cruel leaders toward Christians, Jews and non-Muslims as they’ve exhibited in Islamic nations.

Jim

I will agree with you Jim, thank you for finding middle ground with me. But if Isral is God’s land then why would they ever need any help at all ? With anything?
Its kind of an oxymoron to me pesronally.

Cheers!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I will agree with you Jim, thank you for finding middle ground with me. But if Isral is God’s land then why would they ever need any help at all ? With anything?
Its kind of an oxymoron to me pesronally.

Cheers!

The state of Israel isn’t God’s land, nor is it Muslim or Christian land.

The new Jerusalem is in heaven where Christ is King.

Those who defend Israel blindly out of some idea of Biblical prophecy, are delusional.

That being said, God will help Israel if that’s his will and will do so from aid from others if necessary.

God works through human beings for good, in most cases.

Jim

 

[april32010]

The state of Israel isn’t God’s land, nor is it Muslim or Christian land.

The new Jerusalem is in heaven where Christ is King.

Those who defend Israel blindly out of some idea of Biblical prophecy, are delusional.

That being said, God will help Israel if that’s his will and will do so from aid from others if necessary.

God works through human beings for good, in most cases.

Jim

:yup: :tiphat:

 

[Ron_in_minden]

I’ve often wondered myself why this blind adulation and support for the state of Israel amongst many evangelicals. I don’t want to see the Jewish state blasted into oblivion but I don’t see how the current state of Israel is the same as the biblical nation. Of course when I mention this to my neighbors I make sure I’m wearing my flak jacket. Any thoughts on why they view the
state of Israel this way?

 

[OneSheep]

I’m not trolling. You can’t deny the absolute confidence that the former president of Iran Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has when he does not bow down to western liberal media agendas. I Admire him for that the man is an alpha male.

The USA spends 8.5 million dollars a day! American tax money that is printed out to aid israel’s defense. For what? What concern do I have over their saftey? What is israel going to do for the average American tax payer that American innovation and enginuity has never accomplished. Why do American tax payers never get an annual letter from the president of Israel thanking us for helping him have his own country.

Lets take just 1/4 of the money spent every year and give some scholorships out to working single mothers to be able to get an education and child care? Or dental work for the homeless, Lets take 50% of the gross annual aid and build some community colleges that offer 4 year degrees. This is why I was an advent Ron Paul supporter. What exactuly is Israel going to do for me being an “Ally” to the USA? The only people that concenrns are Ivy League goverment bureaucrats.
With all due respect to those whom I disagree with, lets take care of our own

Respectful regards to you all.

Kount C

Hello Kount C

I appreciate your respectful regards. I believe that Israeli leadership is quite grateful for our support, but on the other hand our support is also viewed over there as a means of manipulating their politics, sometimes in directions more hawkish than many Israelis would like, at least that is what I have read. You might try reading some articles by Stephen Zunes.

I also agree that our money could be used in a lot of other ways to better the situation or used elsewhere in more productive ways. However, these opinions are not necessarily a “Catholic” response. There is plenty of room for a variety of Catholic “moral” responses to the situation, including those that see we are morally obligated to do everything we can (money and weaponry) to help the Israelis.

Forgiveness, however, is to be our first Catholic response. If you feel resentment toward U.S. or Israeli political leaders, alive or dead, I encourage you to forgive. If you feel resentment toward Israeli settlers, forgive. If it is toward oil company execs and others who exploited Iran, it is our calling to forgive. If you do not hold anything against any of those involved, then there is no calling to forgive. However, if you are a normal human being with a healthy conscience, you will hear one side of the narrative before the other, you will side with whichever group you do not blame for the mess, and you will hold the other side in contempt.

With returned respect…

 

[OneSheep]

I’ve often wondered myself why this blind adulation and support for the state of Israel amongst many evangelicals. I don’t want to see the Jewish state blasted into oblivion but I don’t see how the current state of Israel is the same as the biblical nation. Of course when I mention this to my neighbors I make sure I’m wearing my flak jacket. Any thoughts on why they view the
state of Israel this way?

Well, the setting of the modern state is roughly the same. There are plenty of Jewish people that believe that the land was given to them by God, so that is the same. No nation is “the same” as time passes.

To me, irony of today’s State is that in new testament times Israel was occupied by Rome, and Jesus called for forgiveness, not war, and He is a Jew forever remembered. Now a Jewish government is occupying land owned by native dwellers, and the native dwellers (Palestinians) are occasionally striking back. Our “majority” Christian nation is not standing for forgiveness, instead we stand for and support military means.

 

[HumblePilgrim]

I do not support the nation of Israel as I believe that they have and are committing war crimes and open apartheid against the Palestinian people as well as Ethiopian Jews.

 

[GEddie]

Well, the setting of the modern state is roughly the same. There are plenty of Jewish people that believe that the land was given to them by God, so that is the same. No nation is “the same” as time passes.

To me, irony of today’s State is that in new testament times Israel was occupied by Rome, and Jesus called for forgiveness, not war, and He is a Jew forever remembered. Now a Jewish government is occupying land owned by native dwellers, and the native dwellers (Palestinians) are occasionally striking back. Our “majority” Christian nation is not standing for forgiveness, instead we stand for and support military means.

You cannot forgive while continuing to be harmed physically.

Everybody has the right to defense, even if injustice was committed to place them where they are.

If the killing ends, then is the time for forgiveness.

Based on your argument, the Palestinians are in the position of the Jewish Zealots in our LORD’s day. But the Zealots were NOT forgiven. Indeed, our LORD warned that the nation would be destroyed, and it was.

ICXC NIKA

 

[GEddie]

I do not support the nation of Israel as I believe that they have and are committing war crimes and open apartheid against the Palestinian people as well as Ethiopian Jews.

Explain; How is Israel committing apartheid against Ethiopian Jews, seeing as how the country itself spent millions to rescue them in 1984?

ICXC NIKA

 

[GEddie]

I’ve often wondered myself why this blind adulation and support for the state of Israel amongst many evangelicals. I don’t want to see the Jewish state blasted into oblivion but I don’t see how the current state of Israel is the same as the biblical nation. Of course when I mention this to my neighbors I make sure I’m wearing my flak jacket. Any thoughts on why they view the
state of Israel this way?

Biblical Israel was Jewish; so is the Modern State.

The two nations were also almost conterminous geographically. Place a Bible map next to one of the modern Middle East and see for yourself.

ICXC NIKA