Not sure how to respond to my protestant friend

[Protestor]

Communion in a small group is frowned upon?
Really?
Like the early Christians did it?
What’s the acceptable number to be not frowned upon?

I would like to point out that I never said that I frown upon having communion at small group bible studies. I have actually done it, and the leader of the group was put under church discipline.

Yes, it is at least for the Church of God and Assemblies of God which I am pretty sure are break offs of the pentecostal church. At least in my experience with those churches. I have a reliable pentecostal friend who will know for sure that I can contact if it will make you happy. But in reality her churches opinion and the churches that I attended opinion is most likely not the “official” opinion of the denomination if one even actually exists. I can tell you for sure that the PCA church disapproves.

Do you know the “official” pentecostal view on having communion at a small group bible study or prayer group?

 

[MacQ]

I would like to point out that I never said that I frown upon having communion at small group bible studies. I have actually done it, and the leader of the group was put under church discipline.

Yes, it is at least for the Church of God and Assemblies of God which I am pretty sure are break offs of the pentecostal church. At least in my experience with those churches. I have a reliable pentecostal friend who will know for sure that I can contact if it will make you happy. But in reality her churches opinion and the churches that I attended opinion is most likely not the “official” opinion of the denomination if one even actually exists. I can tell you for sure that the PCA church disapproves.

Do you know the “official” pentecostal view on having communion at a small group bible study or prayer group?

It was not clear to me that you were referring to the Pentecostal Church doing the frowning.
Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Are you able to quote the passages of scripture, it may be helpful when talking to my friend. If I mention St Ignatius that might not go down so well with my protestant friend who like most protestants have a problem with Mary and the Saints. Scripture is everything to a protestant and the best way to make a point with them is to quote scripture.

Sure. One point is the unity of the Church and the distribution of authority. There are many ways you could approach the question. For example, St. Paul refers to the Church as the Body of Christ. He does this to illustrate two points: (1) its unity and (2) its hierarchy and organization. One such passage is from 1 Corinthians 12.

1 Now concerning spiritual things, my brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2 You know that when you were heathens, you went to dumb idols, according as you were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man, speaking by the Spirit of God, saith Anathema to Jesus. And no man can say the Lord Jesus, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit;

5 And there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord;

6 And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all.

7 And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit.

8 To one indeed, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom: and to another, the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;

9 To another, faith in the same spirit; to another, the grace of healing in one Spirit;

10 To another, the working of miracles; to another, prophecy; to another, the discerning of spirits; to another, diverse kinds of tongues; to another, interpretation of speeches.

11 But all these things one and the same Spirit worketh, dividing to every one according as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ.

13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink.

14 For the body also is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot should say, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear should say, because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were the eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?

18 But now God hath set the members every one of them in the body as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they all were one member, where would be the body?

20 But now there are many members indeed, yet one body.

21 And the eye cannot say to the hand: I need not thy help; nor again the head to the feet: I have no need of you.

22 Yea, much more those that seem to be the more feeble members of the body, are more necessary.

23 And such as we think to be the less honourable members of the body, about these we put more abundant honour; and those that are our uncomely parts, have more abundant comeliness.

24 But our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, giving to that which wanted the more abundant honour,

25 That there might be no schism in the body; but the members might be mutually careful one for another.

26 And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it; or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member.

28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors; after that miracles; then the graces of healing, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.

29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?

30 Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

There are two key ideas. First is that we all have our own roles and gifts like organs in a body. Second is that we all need each other to function properly and cannot despise the other members of the body. This is not just talking about holy orders, but also special charisms like speaking in tongues or miraculous healings. However, he does have holy orders in mind as well. He seems to indicate this in v. 28, saying, “And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors.” He asks in v. 29, “Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?” The answer being, of course not. So there are some who have a definite role in the Church as leaders and those who definitely do not have this role, just like an ear is definitely an ear and an eye is definitely not an ear. Therefore, it is necessary that there be objective criteria for establishing this authority rather than on someone’s personal whimsy. There is no such criteria in Evangelical Protestantism. Their leaders set themselves up as authorities rather than being set up directly by God or by ministers with objectively verifiable authority from God.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Another passage, perhaps more to the point, can be found in Ephesians 4.

I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called,

2 With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity.

3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4 One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling.

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.

7 But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith: Ascending on high, he led captivity captive; he gave gifts to men.

9 Now that he ascended, what is it, but because he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.

11 And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors,

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ;

14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive.

15 But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body, being compacted and fitly joined together, by what every joint supplieth, according to the operation in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body, unto the edifying of itself in charity.

You see that Paul is discussing the same ideas, though here he is concerned more with the necessity of offices of authority and our unity together with them in the body of Christ in order to preserve “the unity of faith.” This is not true of Protestantism in which all their teachers teach different things. There is no unity of faith and they are all indeed “children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive.” Some say it doesn’t matter that they are all in wild disagreement because they agree on “the necessities.” Well, how are they sure that they know what these “necessities” are. Maybe they are foisting articles of doctrine on others that are matters of legitimate dispute. Maybe there are things that are necessities that they don’t realize are necessities. And maybe the things they do regard as necessities are not only not necessary to believe, but false and not to be believed. There is no way for them to establish this with any certainty. Every one of them is relying on the frailty of his own natural reasoning or, in reality for most people, they are relying on the natural reasoning of others (their pastor, a Protestant catechism written over five hundred years ago, some guy on the internet or whatever the source).

A similar point is that Paul speaks for example of pastors who are set over the flock of the Church. Every sheep must follow his pastor, and he must be able to tell who his pastor is. On the other hand, every Protestant has really set himself up as his own pastor. Even if they submit as sheep to some church authority (for example, Presbyterian Church in America), they are submitting to those who have set themselves up as pastors and have no objective authority from God so that St. Paul could not say to them: “Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God.” (Acts 20:28).

I think that’s a good start at least. I can post more passages later but I need to run now.

 

[Petersmate]

I think that’s a good start at least. I can post more passages later but I need to run now.

Thanks for to taking the time to post, there is helpful information there

 

[fiftyyears2]

QNDNNDQDCE QNDNNDQDCE is offline

Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Not sure how to respond to my protestant friend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petersmate View Post

Are you able to quote the passages of scripture, it may be helpful when talking to my friend.

If I mention St Ignatius that might not go down so well with my protestant friend who like most protestants have a problem with Mary and the Saints.

Scripture is everything to a protestant and the best way to make a point with them is to quote scripture.

Sure. One point is the unity of the Church and the distribution of authority.
There are many ways you could approach the question.

For example, St. Paul refers to the Church as the Body of Christ.

He does this to illustrate two points:

(1) its unity and

(2) its hierarchy and organization.

One such passage is from 1 Corinthians 12.

1 Now concerning spiritual things, my brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

St Paul 's main objective was to have followers “Baptised in the Holy Spirit”

( as was the example of acts 19:1-6

6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

(they were not going around quoting scripture to prove they are right)

1 Corinthians 14:25 -

And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

if you have never prophesied by the anointing of the Holy Spirit -

• and your friend has never prophesied – under the anointing of the Holy Spirit

then you are BOTH - only received the baptism of JOHN

So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. 4 Paul said, "John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance.

But when they saw a group of prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing there as their leader, the Spirit of God came upon Saul’s men and they also prophesied

. 21 Saul was told about it, and he sent more men, and they prophesied too. Saul sent men a third time, and they also prophesied.

22 Finally, he himself left for Ramah and went to the great cistern at Secu. And he asked, “Where are Samuel and David?” “Over in Naioth at Ramah,” they said.

23 So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even upon him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth.

24 He stripped off his robes and also prophesied in Samuel’s presence.

He lay that way all that day and night.

This is why people say, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

this is what Saint paul was speaking of – which you don’t see and experience in many of today’s churches–

So that people have – replaced the HOLY Spirit – with “quoting scripture”

seek the truth and you will find it

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-

• 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him,

and thats all i have to say about that!

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Friend, you are mistaken. Paul’s words here are concerned with order in the church, not an admonition to be “baptized in the Holy Spirit” (whatever that means to you). He is not pitting “baptism in the Holy Spirit” against Scripture, which would be nonsensical. I note that your post does not even talk about 1 Corinthians 12.

St. Paul expressly says that the gift of tongues is not given to all, and neither is the gift of prophecy given to all, but diversities of graces. Yet, contrary to this Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, you are telling OP that if he and his friend never prophesy, then they have not even been baptized, only having received John’s baptism. What does Scripture say here? “John baptized the people with the baptism of penance, saying: That they should believe in him who was to come after him, that is to say, in Jesus.” In this place, John’s baptism is not pitted against baptism in the Holy Spirit, but against “baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus” which is one and the same with the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Paul baptizes the Ephesians in the name of Jesus, lays his hands upon them, and they receive the Holy Ghost. This is the fulfillment of the command in St. Matthew’s Gospel: “Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” It cannot be the case that baptism in the Holy Spirit means that all who receive it will prophesy. Paul asks, “Are all prophets?” If all were prophets, he is wrong. He says that the Holy Spirit divides a diversity of graces “to every one according as he will.” You go much too far to say that you are more enlightened than an Apostle.

I see that this is your only post. I hope you did not register only to make this one post. Hopefully, you can stay around and post in threads where your contributions will be more relevant.

Catholics also do not deny special revelations and prophecy. Catholic have many stories of prophecies and miracles, which receive ridicule from cessationist Protestants. Maybe you would do better to register on a Protestant forum like Puritan Board. I’m sure you’ll have a lot to talk about over there.