Not sure I understand the feminist problem

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The Feminist Problem is created in part by Feminsts themselves - due (among a variety of other dynamics) to it’s** very name**. Feminist. The advocacy for one group. It is exclusionary (Oh yes it is too! - in the fundamental translation of actuality!) I am not a feminist by any stretch. I am a We - ist or an US - ist. Example - When at a Pro - Life rally I see thousands of signs that state 'Women deserve better than Abortion" etc. Hello? Why not We deserve better than abortion?

Well I guess we men are just -*not *- invited. The systematic negation (of society at large and all too often by ripple effect into the Church ) of acknowledging Male’s issues is readily apparent. For example - in the procreative process alone - is ghastly. Why do people say of a couple ‘They are pregnant’ when a child is expected? Hello? Males do not get pregnant. Sheesh.

Do not get me started on Male issues. One can see the very negative broad references to men in this very thread. I could go on forever.

There. I feel better now.

That aside I do see the atrocities that are committed against women. China was mentioned. There are countless other glaring bizzarre absurdities perpetrated on women. I will take the front Line position to fight against such.

So. Is there a ‘Feminist Problem?’ Yes there is. There is a Male - ist Problem as well. Fundamentally it all reduces to a Sin Problem.
 
I did not know that.
It also argues against the idea that the Catholic Church has historically been pro-woman.
Actually not. The issue was that the Church was very clerical. If you observe, all of the Doctors of the Church are priests. It was believed that women should not be named doctors (teachers), because they were not priests. But there were men excluded as well. There have been many brothers and laymen who can now be named doctors, thanks to Bl. John Paul II. One that we’ve been asking for is Francis of Assisi. But he was a brother. He could not be called a doctor. Someday, when Br. Lawrence is canonized, he may well become a doctor. There is also Thomas More, who can now be named a doctor. He could not, because he was a layman.

These are people who made great contributions to the theological development and spiritual life of the Church.

You were not denied the title doctor because you were a woman, but because you were not a priest. I should have added that Pope Paul VI did the actual naming of Catherine and Teresa as doctors. There were complaints about it, because they were not priests and Bl. John Paul dismissed the objectioins as nonsense.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I believed that I may not have made myself clear. Let me try again. The feminist movement is politicized and intrusive. It has not only try to intrude in the Church but in cultures as well. I offered the example of how it has tried to influence the Muslim and Asian cultures.
I never said that they are without fault and errors. However, there is a difference between errors, which we also have in our culture and customs. The current feminist movement does not distinguish between the two. Anything that is not approved by the movement it wrong.

That’s not the way that Catholicism has ever viewed feminism. We have always seen women as competent, intelligent and as mothers. The current feminist mindset draws a line between the mother and wife vs the competent and intelligent woman.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Then why did you speak of those cultures in such an approving way in comparison to our own Western culure?
 
Then why did you speak of those cultures in such an approving way in comparison to our own Western culure?
Because like any other culture, they have things of great value and we can’t paint with a wide brush when looking at the weaknesses in others and a narrow one when looking at our own.

I don’t disapprove of our Western culture. I disapprove of the politicized version of feminism in our culture. Western feminism is intrusive. You cannot dictate customs to cultures or morality to faith communities. Such actions are intrusive.

Every human being has a moral duty to protect the innocent and come to the aid of those who ask for help to escape oppression. On the other hand, we do not have the right to try to liberate those who are comfortable in their space and have not violated any moral law, without their consent.

I can’t remember what year it was. There was an international gathering of women leaders in Geneva. Everyone was asked to send a delegate. Vatican City sent Mother Teresa of Calcutta. She left after two days. She said that for two days she heard nothing but condemnation of the developing nations who allow their women to have multiple pregnancies instead of promoting birth control and abortion. She concluded her statement by saying, “In India, we love our children and we love having children. We do not need help to prevent births, we need help to keep children alive.”

That’s a good example of intrusion in other cultures by the Western Feminist Movement.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Because like any other culture, they have things of great value and we can’t paint with a wide brush when looking at the weaknesses in others and a narrow one when looking at our own.

I don’t disapprove of our Western culture. I disapprove of the politicized version of feminism in our culture. Western feminism is intrusive. You cannot dictate customs to cultures or morality to faith communities. Such actions are intrusive.

Every human being has a moral duty to protect the innocent and come to the aid of those who ask for help to escape oppression. On the other hand, we do not have the right to try to liberate those who are comfortable in their space and have not violated any moral law, without their consent.

I can’t remember what year it was. There was an international gathering of women leaders in Geneva. Everyone was asked to send a delegate. Vatican City sent Mother Teresa of Calcutta. She left after two days. She said that for two days she heard nothing but condemnation of the developing nations who allow their women to have multiple pregnancies instead of promoting birth control and abortion. She concluded her statement by saying, “In India, we love our children and we love having children. We do not need help to prevent births, we need help to keep children alive.”

That’s a good example of intrusion in other cultures by the Western Feminist Movement.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Catholicism does that all the time.
Moreover Catholic Kingdoms used to impose their own morality on other faith communities with a very heavy hand.
 
Catholicism does that all the time.
Moreover Catholic Kingdoms used to impose their own morality on other faith communities with a very heavy hand.
Catholicism teaches what is moral and condemns what is immoral. That is its right and what society expects of the Church. At the end of the day, the individual must make the choice and live with the consequences. NOW and other feminist organizations have not been assigned such a role in society. In addition to the fact that they often condemn what is morally good or neutral, such as having many children, stay at home moms, homeschooling moms and their rhetoric is more often than not anti-male than it is pro-human rights.

As to what Catholic kingdoms did, we have to look at the term. The were CATHOLIC kingdoms. Heresies and non-Christians were not only of conflicting faiths, but they were always inimical to the state, such as the Muslims that invaded Christian Spain and Christian Turkey. They did more than settle in with a different belief system. They conquered Christian kingdoms. Their presence threatened the stability of fragile states. Remember that the European states were not the strong unified nations that they are today. Faith and welfare were in jeopardy.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Catholicism does that all the time.
Moreover Catholic Kingdoms used to impose their own morality on other faith communities with a very heavy hand.
I wouldn’t simply just SAY something about the past and expect it to have weight. Good times and bad times happened in those days. Philosophy, science, theology, hospitals and univesities are all attributed to the Catholic Church, but they occurred WITHIN Catholic Kingdoms.

I also recommend you look up the History of Poland, as the most tolerant Catholic Kingdom in the Middle Ages. It was so tolerant some called it “The heretic (or Jewish) paradise.”

-Karl
 
Radical feminism had this to say about the family: Betty Friedan (author of the Feminine Mystique, 1963, and one of the founders of the National Organization for Women) compared the family to “a comfortable concentration camp.” Gloria Steinem (Ms. Magazine co-founder, and yes, that’s where that word came from) had this to say: “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” Ms. Magazine first appeared in January 1972.

Did men and women have problems as couples prior to the 1970’s feminists? Sure. Did they try to present solutions to solving problems between men and women? No. What did they do? They convinced some women that they were the eternal Victim Class and men were the enemy.

Equality? They didn’t want equality. And they certainly did not want romance. If the woman did not have exactly the same amount of power as the man, then she should be distrusting, unloving and certainly not romantic with any man. Men became the eternal enemy.

It was about power and money. And being a stay at home mom? Having babies and staying home to help raise your own children was bad. Getting out of the house and getting a career so you could smoke cigars and be the head of a corporation - like a man - was more important.

Soon, real love and romance disappeared from music, movies and TV, and then, for some, from real life.

Instead of healing, solving problems and helping in general. Instead of helping couples prepare for marriage and getting them to talk openly about what they expected, a barrier was created. And, in the process, love was divorced from sex, and now it’s ‘just sex,’ like going to the bathroom.

I suggest women and men read the following book by Catholic writer and former TV reporter, Teresa Tomeo, to understand where women are today and how things got this way.

amazon.com/Extreme-Makeover-Transformed-Conformed-Culture/dp/1586175610

Peace,
Ed
 
Are you giving a personal example or suggesting that this is typical for most couples? I have noticed that women who feel that their husbands are not doing enough around the house rarely want equality. Usually these women want to be in charge of the house, deciding which jobs should be done, and how, and to what standard. True equality would mean that the husband gets as much say as the wife. If he does not think the floor needs to be washed, why should his wife be able to order him to?
I think every couple should find what works for them. Some people love to cook of clean, and do it happily.

I’m not sure I agree with your assessment of what most women want around the house. Perhaps their idea of clean is different than their husbands. Ordering is a bit harsh don’t you think? Really, the floor need washing once a week, so I do it this week, you do it next. Perhaps the Man spends a lot of the day keeping up the yard, that should count as house work and the wife does the inside. Maybe they work together. No one should have to order anyone to not be a pig.

I suppose this is my life. I work as much as my husband. I support our house equally. So why should I come home and cook,clean laundry, why should he watch tv while I work more?
 
Many people do not realize that the Catholic Church is probably the most “feminist” institution in the world and the oldest. Unfortunately, the concept of feminism has been politicized. If we take an honest look at history, the Catholic Church has promoted and supported the role of women in many areas and many times.

It all begins with Sacred Scripture. Mary of Nazareth proclaims the Incarnation to the world. How else would anyone know, if Mary had not told her story? Mary of Magdala was the first to announce the Resurrection. How would Peter have known, since he was not at the cemetery?

Fast forward to Benedict and his sister, Scholatica. Scholastic organizes monastic women in the Latin Church. She is the first known abbess. In those days, the abbess had a lot more authority than today. They were landlords with great estates and tenant farmers. That’s how the nuns supported their abbeys. They often had jurisdiction over the diocesan priests in the area, if there was no bishop.

Moving right along, there come St. Francis and St. Clare of Assisi. Francis hands Clare his rule and tells her to rewrite it to fit her vision. She does exactly that. Francis prohibits the involvement of males in the governance of Clare and her sisters and states to the friars that women should never be subordinate to men; therefore, they must stay away from the affairs of the nuns. To this day, the Poor Clares run themselves.

Move ahead to Vincent de Paul and Louise de Marillac. Louise does not want to enter a cloister. She wants to serve the poor. Vincent agrees, but how to do this without incurring the wrath of the Holy See. Vincent and Louise come up with the idea of a community of sisters, rather than nuns. But these sisters would be secular, not religious. They founded the Daughters of Charity. They get around the Holy See by not having a canonical novitiate, not having religious superiors and by not having perpetual vows. The Daughters of Charity, make vows annually on March 25. They can leave at any time when the year expires. They self-govern. They have no superior. They have always run their own hospitals and schools. They have managed the money and had total control over their activities without interference from the bishops. Bishops are not allowed to interfere with them.

Move right along to Teresa of Avila who reforms both the female and the male Carmelites in Spain. Let’s move back to Catherine of Siena, who was a lay woman that had personal dealings with bishops and popes and was often their confidant and adviser.

Queen Isabella of Spain governed over the bishops of Spain. No bishop could be appointed without her recognitio. The pope appointed the bishop, but the queen had to accept him in her realm.

Catholic women have done things that no other women have done. They have governed themselves, managed property and assets, started institutions and managed them, reformed religious orders, run Catholic realms, are teachers of the Church (women Doctors), serve as theologians, chancellors, educators, administrators, and worked in diverse areas from highly academic to manual labor.

The oppression of women was always a cultural issue. However, we have to admit that today’s feminist movement over extends itself. It is intrusive and tries to impose its vision for women on institutions and cultures. For example, it has interfered in the Church with it’s claim on a “right” to ordination. It has interfered with Muslim culture claiming that Muslim women are oppressed, when most Muslim women feel quite comfortable with their place in Muslim society. Abuse in Muslim culture is like any other culture. If there is an abusive husband, his wife will be abused. If the husband has moral values, his wife will be treated with respect. It has tried to reform Asian culture. Again, most Asian women do not complain about their customs. They feel protected by those customs and again, an abusive husband is abusive and a respectful one is respectful.

As to women’s place in the workforce, the Church has never objected to that. The Church has always advocated for women’s place in the family. That’s not the same thing as keeping them out of the workforce. The mother’s role in the Catholic family is grounded in Judaism, where the mother is the keeper of the faith. We have always seen that in Catholicism. Just look at Monica and many other married women saints. In most Catholic homes, it has been the mother who was the keeper of the faith. Therefore, the Catholic Church has always advocated for a strong maternal presence in the home. That is not to say that the Church has ever denied a woman’s right to work outside the home and to do other things that men do.

As history show us, Catholic women were liberated long before the word feminism existed. Ask Scholastica, Clare, Teresa, Catherine, Isabella, Mother Teresa and Mother Angelica.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Interesting post. I see the real problem is not the church, but the world. Women have been oppressed, lacking many civil rights. Not now but 100 years ago. Thats where this hostel move from some women.

What do I want? I want to be safe financial, I want to have the rights my husband has (vote, medical, decisions about my kids) I think I have all that. I just don’t think I should have to work 80 hours a week while he works 40 and be told that a clean house should give me my self worth. Believe me scrubbing, washing and cooking don’t lead to self fulfillment, not when everyone else sitting!
 
This thread confuses me. What is the point being argued. Is the OP thinking that the Church teaches that women should be men’s servants? Anyone ever heard that before? I sure haven’t.

No thats not what I am asking or saying.

I think we are equal and should be treated as such. If I have to work, you have to help around the house. Women should get equal pay for equal work.

Whats wrong with wanting a fulfilled life no matter what that is?(Moral and legal of course)

I have to work. Why should I also do all the cooking, dishes shopping cleaning yard work bill paying cart the kids, doctor school issues ans well as work the same 40 hours as the husband? Would you want that life, or would you want to share the burden?

I think men think women should just want to and watch them sit and be pleased they are helping their man. Well, my feet hurt after standing all day and I don’t feel ike waiting on YOU! I think that my issue.

Please don’t tell me to stay home, we need the income. So am trying to redirect our habits in a positive way.

Ok gotta go to work, No hostility please. I don’t consider myself a feminist, just a person trying to make our lives work as a team!
 
This thread confuses me. What is the point being argued. Is the OP thinking that the Church teaches that women should be men’s servants? Anyone ever heard that before? I sure haven’t.

No thats not what I am asking or saying.

I think we are equal and should be treated as such. If I have to work, you have to help around the house. Women should get equal pay for equal work.

Whats wrong with wanting a fulfilled life no matter what that is?(Moral and legal of course)

I have to work. Why should I also do all the cooking, dishes shopping cleaning yard work bill paying cart the kids, doctor school issues ans well as work the same 40 hours as the husband? Would you want that life, or would you want to share the burden?

I think men think women should just want to and watch them sit and be pleased they are helping their man. Well, my feet hurt after standing all day and I don’t feel ike waiting on YOU! I think that my issue.

Please don’t tell me to stay home, we need the income. So am trying to redirect our habits in a positive way.

Ok gotta go to work, No hostility please. I don’t consider myself a feminist, just a person trying to make our lives work as a team!
Monica,
With all due respect, I don’t think your issue is so much with the “equal rights” or “the feminist movement” as it is with the fact your marriage is not working out as smoothly as your parents. This is something you and your husband need to work out. From your posts, I get that while you are working 40 hours a week outside the home, you also have to do all the rest of the household duties. That’s not really a feminist issue. I would suggest calmly sitting down with your husband and explaining what you are frustrated. Sometimes it’s simply a lack of communication on expectations. Another thing to consider is getting someone to come in once a week and do the cleaning. I don’t know your finances, but if both of you are working full time, perhaps there is enough money left over for this…if not, I would consider what “luxury” I want to trade out for hiring a housekeeper once a week (cable TV, salon hair cuts/coloring, etc). Grocery shopping could be done together on Friday evening or a Saturday (if both of you work M-F). Perhaps he thinks your hours are more flexible for kid’s appointments…another thing you two need to discuss.
It may come down to needing counseling for the two of you, if your husband doesn’t listen to or want to work out a plan to make your marriage a happy, workable thing for both of you. If that’s the case, there’s likely more at play than just an unwillingness to help out or pull his weight around the house. This is only my :twocents: on this issue. I would think posting something about the problem of the household duties and both working full time over in the “Catholic Living, Family Life subsection” would elicit some more answers appropriate to what your situation is.
 
Are you giving a personal example or suggesting that this is typical for most couples? I have noticed that women who feel that their husbands are not doing enough around the house rarely want equality. Usually these women want to be in charge of the house, deciding which jobs should be done, and how, and to what standard. True equality would mean that the husband gets as much say as the wife. If he does not think the floor needs to be washed, why should his wife be able to order him to?
Coming straight from my priest’s mouth, who is a member of the FSSP, men and children are expected to help out around the house too and help his wife/parents with the dishes, chores, etc out of charity, especially if she is tired from her day’s work either raising children or having to work. Men and children should strive for the greater act of charity by doing these things without having to be asked. 👍
 
Catholicism teaches what is moral and condemns what is immoral. That is its right and what society expects of the Church. At the end of the day, the individual must make the choice and live with the consequences. NOW and other feminist organizations have not been assigned such a role in society. In addition to the fact that they often condemn what is morally good or neutral, such as having many children, stay at home moms, homeschooling moms and their rhetoric is more often than not anti-male than it is pro-human rights.

**As to what Catholic kingdoms did, we have to look at the term. The were CATHOLIC kingdoms. Heresies and non-Christians were not only of conflicting faiths, but they were always inimical to the state, such as the Muslims that invaded Christian Spain and Christian Turkey. They did more than settle in with a different belief system. They conquered Christian kingdoms. Their presence threatened the stability of fragile states. Remember that the European states were not the strong unified nations that they are today. Faith and welfare were in jeopardy. **

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
So you’re saying that it was okay when Catholics did it, but immoral when groups like the Feminists (assuming you can call such a diverse body a group) do it:rolleyes:
 
Radical feminism had this to say about the family: Betty Friedan (author of the Feminine Mystique, 1963, and one of the founders of the National Organization for Women) compared the family to “a comfortable concentration camp.” Gloria Steinem (Ms. Magazine co-founder, and yes, that’s where that word came from) had this to say: “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” Ms. Magazine first appeared in January 1972.

Did men and women have problems as couples prior to the 1970’s feminists? Sure. Did they try to present solutions to solving problems between men and women? No. What did they do? They convinced some women that they were the eternal Victim Class and men were the enemy.

Equality? They didn’t want equality. And they certainly did not want romance. If the woman did not have exactly the same amount of power as the man, then she should be distrusting, unloving and certainly not romantic with any man. Men became the eternal enemy.

It was about power and money. And being a stay at home mom? Having babies and staying home to help raise your own children was bad. Getting out of the house and getting a career so you could smoke cigars and be the head of a corporation - like a man - was more important.

Soon, real love and romance disappeared from music, movies and TV, and then, for some, from real life.

Instead of healing, solving problems and helping in general. Instead of helping couples prepare for marriage and getting them to talk openly about what they expected, a barrier was created. And, in the process, love was divorced from sex, and now it’s ‘just sex,’ like going to the bathroom.

I suggest women and men read the following book by Catholic writer and former TV reporter, Teresa Tomeo, to understand where women are today and how things got this way.

amazon.com/Extreme-Makeover-Transformed-Conformed-Culture/dp/1586175610

Peace,
Ed
Your commentary would have more weight Ed (at least in my eyes) if you didn’t reject change more or less automatically as bad:shrug:
 
This thread confuses me. What is the point being argued. Is the OP thinking that the Church teaches that women should be men’s servants? Anyone ever heard that before? I sure haven’t.
No thats not what I am asking or saying.

I think we are equal and should be treated as such. If I have to work, you have to help around the house. Women should get equal pay for equal work.

Whats wrong with wanting a fulfilled life no matter what that is?(Moral and legal of course)

I have to work. Why should I also do all the cooking, dishes shopping cleaning yard work bill paying cart the kids, doctor school issues ans well as work the same 40 hours as the husband? Would you want that life, or would you want to share the burden?

I think men think women should just want to and watch them sit and be pleased they are helping their man. Well, my feet hurt after standing all day and I don’t feel ike waiting on YOU! I think that my issue.

Please don’t tell me to stay home, we need the income. So am trying to redirect our habits in a positive way.

Ok gotta go to work, No hostility please. I don’t consider myself a feminist, just a person trying to make our lives work as a team!
I have.
The idea that women are inferior and exist to serve men is considered a Fringe opinion in mainstream Protestant and Catholic circles now, but it used to be widely accepted in Christian communities. Moreover the idea still enjoys wide popularity in the Middle East and other areas.
Even some modern day Catholics here in the West still cling to the idea that women are functionally inferior. Here’s a link (below) to one of the worst offenders in case your morbidly curious:
catholicplanet.com/articles/article93.htm

I warn you though its pretty vile.
If the ideas this guy is advocating were actually implemented, Catholic women would be treated with all the kindness and consideration:rolleyes: of women living in places like Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan.
 
I have.
The idea that women are inferior and exist to serve men is considered a Fringe opinion in mainstream Protestant and Catholic circles now, but it used to be widely accepted in Christian communities. Moreover the idea still enjoys wide popularity in the Middle East and other areas.
Even some modern day Catholics here in the West still cling to the idea that women are functionally inferior. Here’s a link (below) to one of the worst offenders in case your morbidly curious:
catholicplanet.com/articles/article93.htm

I warn you though its pretty vile.
If the ideas this guy is advocating were actually implemented, Catholic women would be treated with all the kindness and consideration:rolleyes: of women living in places like Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan.
Is that guy the poor delusional soul that thinks he’s the Pope? I 've read about that here on CAF.
 
I suppose this is my life. I work as much as my husband. I support our house equally. So why should I come home and cook,clean laundry, why should he watch tv while I work more?
It sounds like you have a problem with your husband rather then with the Catholic Church or equal rights.
 
Hmmmmmm… Interesting that the thread seems now to be Catholics, despite the Church of the Catholic’s relatively, compared to the world -stellar- performance regarding elevating the status of women a la Mary as a role model - as the ones perpetrating atrocities against females. :rolleyes:

Indeed. Methinks the bulk of the Feminists have caused their own misery. The Feminists advocate the killing of women in the womb for reasons (can one name a greater atrocity as perpetrated by Feminists or any other entity like say Stalin or China, that have killed in such high numbers? No. Methinks not.) of unwanted pregnancy due to the most part for -their shall we say -*recreational *sex proclivities (sex for reasons other than procreation - obviously.) Rape, BTW, is by far the most minor reason given for abortion. Ergo the women are killed (not to even mention the atrocity of males being killed by said women Feminists) and the woman left (the Mother) is now psychologically *damaged *and often does not even *know *it. Note as well - the mother must then recommend abortion to all her friends when faced with similar situations that said Feminist Mother faced because for her to advise the contrary would be to admit to herself of her actually killing a person. A mechanism not unlike joining the Mafia. Do not they (the Mafia) have you kill someone (to be a ‘made man’ ) before they let one into the inner circle?

So. It is then quite natural, as per the pursuant sin process, for the Feminist with a guilty conscience to run around and point fingers at others -yes? Are they not subconsciously pointing the finger at themselves?
 
Your commentary would have more weight Ed (at least in my eyes) if you didn’t reject change more or less automatically as bad:shrug:
Can you be more specific? Here is what I’m pointing out, and I was there to see and hear all of it.

The Marxist class warfare structure established by the radical feminists that sought to divide the sexes and not help them.

If some women felt that men, as a group, were only trying to exploit them then stay away from men. That works today as well.

It is a fact that a media supported propaganda apparatus was set up that taught women to accept the following changes:

A baby is ‘a bundle of joy,’ a gift from God. Wrong.
Contraception will free you from the burden of babies. And abortion was a good alternative as well.

Being a wife and mother meant endless drudgery and bowing and scraping to a man. I recall the following: “Sisters! Throw off the chains of your oppression!”
Solution? Get out of the house and get a career. Yeah, I read about a woman who did just that, and she was very disappointed.

I ask you to consider the following:

I was born in the mid-1950s.

Abortion was illegal.

There was no Pill.

Marriage was viewed as a partnership.

My father worked hard - over 40 hours per week.

Both my parents went without buying certain things so they could send both their children to Catholic school.

Married couples were content with what they had. Sure, they would have liked and appreciated more but they did the best with what they had

The average number of kids in my neighborhood was two, not five or 10.

We all had chores, and were happy to help our mom or dad get something done.

We were also taught, no sex before marriage.

Peace,
Ed
 
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