Not sure if joining a Third Order is the right decision for me

[jwinch2]

Jason, when I say training in terms of working with mixed groups, I don’t mean weekend wonder training. I mean professional group management training or experience. Counselors have this kind of training, as do very professional and experienced teachers. They know how to present material, help manage difficulties for people with problems, know what to keep private, what to say and not say while still getting the ideas going around the room, and take care of all kinds of things without their audience even being aware of it. When they’re working like 90, it just looks like they’re just standing around smiling.

You’re a teacher; I’ve been a teacher. You know what I’m talking about, right?

I understand and agree for the most part. To be fair though, you typically have people teaching RCIA and CCD with the same or even far less formal training in how to teach. Even priests and deacons if they are actively involved in either program really don’t have much in formal training in how to teach.

I can also assure you that the overwhelming majority of university professors have no training whatsoever in how to teach. Unless their field of study is pedagogy or education, they are trained experts in their subject matter, but are pretty much dropped in the deep end with regard to teaching. I know I was.

 

[iloveangels]

I understand and agree for the most part. To be fair though, you typically have people teaching RCIA and CCD with the same or even far less formal training in how to teach. Even priests and deacons if they are actively involved in either program really don’t have much in formal training in how to teach.

I can also assure you that the overwhelming majority of university professors have no training whatsoever in how to teach. Unless their field of study is pedagogy or education, they are trained experts in their subject matter, but are pretty much dropped in the deep end with regard to teaching. I know I was.

Yeah, I know. That’s one of the reasons that most RCIA programs are gold-plated flops. I’m a convert; I don’t know if you are or not. Many converts are amused and/or scandalized by those programs. They’re generally pretty bad. I found them amusing because I knew what I wanted and knew what the church was. I knew I just wanted in, and RCIA was the price I had to pay. But a lot of people are somewhat scandalized or disappointed by RCIA and sometimes they don’t finish as a result.

The Church needs to put some effort into learning the teaching and social arts, because they’re losing too many people, acting like they do. The typical parish has holes you could pilot the Queen Mary through. It’s a matter of caring about the people who come to you; if you care, you don’t just throw them a bone and expect them to get ecstatic about it.

 

[iloveangels]

I think that some of what happens in some of these programs is especially interesting in a certain way.

A true story:

When I realized that I wanted to investigate the Church, I called down to the local parish. Someone in authority answered the phone–I won’t be specific who, but you can probably guess. I told this person that I’d been thinking for a long time and I had been attending Mass, and would like to meet with someone about the possibility of converting. They told me that I should think about it for 2 weeks and if I was still interested, maybe I could call back then. Yawn. I was floored. Why? Because I thought a) they would care, and b) that it mattered and c) that after months of thinking, I had to wait 2 more weeks to have a 15 minute meeting with someone? What?

I’m not the only one I’ve heard this kind of thing from. This happens more than you might think.

There are many people in the church who a) don’t take any of this seriously, and b) are ashamed of their faith–so ashamed they can’t imagine why anyone would sign up and do it voluntarily. You see, for a lot of Catholics, it’s an obligation. One they were “saddled with” as infants, and they just don’t really comprehend teaching and spreading the faith for its inherent goodness and truth and desirability. Oh, they might say they do, but they don’t. This is what drives a lot of these people who lead programs. They have status in the system–it’s a duty that they’re fulfilling b/c they’re good girls & boys, and they have the keys to the building–that’s what it can amount to. Converts look at that and go "TILT. It often really repels them.

So, it’s not really about teaching. It’s not really about evangelization. It’s not even really about the Gospel a good part of the time.

This all happened about 27 years ago. About 15 years ago, this same person walked up to me and assessing the situation, said, “You’re still here. I’m surprised.” I just nodded, but in my head I said, “Well, yeah. Duh. Did you think I was just a neighborhood dog wandering through or what?” Do you wonder why converts leave sometimes? I don’t. This is absolutely inexcusable.

Oh, and I’m taking a convert’s risk, talking about this. Catholics are very touchy, and that includes being touchy and sensitive about this topic. There’s a raw nerve here.

 

[iloveangels]

I understand and agree for the most part. To be fair though, you typically have people teaching RCIA and CCD with the same or even far less formal training in how to teach. Even priests and deacons if they are actively involved in either program really don’t have much in formal training in how to teach.

I can also assure you that the overwhelming majority of university professors have no training whatsoever in how to teach. Unless their field of study is pedagogy or education, they are trained experts in their subject matter, but are pretty much dropped in the deep end with regard to teaching. I know I was.

I used to teach grades 7-12. I have years of training and years of experience. Not only that but I used to be a speaker for an international cooperative learning association and have been trained by the National Science Foundation in innovative learning techniques. I’ve been a professional tutor and occupational trainer and…you get the idea. This sort of thing is not so uncommon among professional teachers. Not that I want to teach; I’m retired and staying that way. I’m just volunteering the information to make the point that: The Catholic Church really doesn’t have this sort of thing in place. They basically have lay amateurs doing some of the most important catechetical tasks that parishes have.

Now, I have to tell you, occasionally they get someone good. But it’s Sheer Luck or Providence, I think. There is a deacon in this diocese who used to be a professional high school teacher. He has natural talent and his interior teaching sense and experience is highly honed. He’s a great, great teacher. But these kinds of people are really rare in many the teaching positions of the Church–particularly those who deal directly with the laity.

There are better subject matter teachers in the seminary, yes. But strangely the laity seem to be some kind of afterthought when it comes to teaching and that’s not dealt with. It’s really one of those funny Catholic oddities or omissions. Something that wouldn’t even be permitted anywhere else; many other churches are very consistent and aware about this sort of thing. It’s one of the major factors in retention of adherents as well as evangelization of new ones.

I should tell you: That deacon is a convert. He started out as a seminarian in a Protestant seminary, preparing to be a minister. He read his Bible a little too well one day.

 

[iloveangels]

So, anyway, my original point was that the program you linked me too, CRHP, is scary. Why? Because it has people talking openly about their failings and greatest fears in a “what happens here stays here” mode. This is not casual stuff. This is the kind of stuff that should only happen in the confessional, for which priests are trained, OR in a counselor’s office, for which counselors are trained.

And when stuff like this comes up in the course of teaching adults, which it invariably does, in settings like parishes and so on…it needs to be handled with experience, delicacy and tact, or a certain number of people get hurt and the rest get titillated, which isn’t the point of religious catechesis or even religious fellowship and fraternity, as you might imagine.

So. I don’t like this program. And I don’t like weekend wonders teaching it.

Fr. Barron’s Catholicism and “Discovering Christ” are both much better programs. The way they’re put together, they both have a content piece, a prayer component, and an affective “fellowship” piece which are far more appropriate.

Rant OFF. Sorry, Jason.

 

[iloveangels]

So, anyway, my original point was that the program you linked me too, CRHP, is scary. Why? Because it has people talking openly about their failings and greatest fears in a “what happens here stays here” mode. This is not casual stuff. This is the kind of stuff that should only happen in the confessional, for which priests are trained, OR in a counselor’s office, for which counselors are trained.

And when stuff like this comes up in the course of teaching adults, which it invariably does, in settings like parishes and so on…it needs to be handled with experience, delicacy and tact, or a certain number of people get hurt and the rest get titillated, which isn’t the point of religious catechesis or even religious fellowship and fraternity, as you might imagine.

So. I don’t like this program. And I don’t like weekend wonders teaching it. This is amateur transactional analysis. Yikes!

Fr. Barron’s Catholicism and “Discovering Christ” are both much better programs. The way they’re put together, they both have a content piece, a prayer component, and an affective “fellowship” piece which are far more appropriate.

Rant OFF. Sorry, Jason.

 

[Viola_Incognita]

The Church needs to put some effort into learning the teaching and social arts, because they’re losing too many people, acting like they do. The typical parish has holes you could pilot the Queen Mary through. It’s a matter of caring about the people who come to you; if you care, you don’t just throw them a bone and expect them to get ecstatic about it.

Funny because it’s not funny and true.

Oh, and I’m taking a convert’s risk, talking about this. Catholics are very touchy, and that includes being touchy and sensitive about this topic. There’s a raw nerve here.

Thank you for speaking up and taking the risk. Thank you for speaking the truth.

May the Lord send forth His Spirit to heal these wounds in our parishes. Amen.

 

[jwinch2]

Yeah, I know. That’s one of the reasons that most RCIA programs are gold-plated flops. I’m a convert; I don’t know if you are or not. Many converts are amused and/or scandalized by those programs. They’re generally pretty bad. I found them amusing because I knew what I wanted and knew what the church was. I knew I just wanted in, and RCIA was the price I had to pay.

I am a convert and our RCIA program was very good. Not every teacher on the RCIA team was stellar, but the director was and she ran a pretty tight ship. Thankfully, there was only one occasion where things got a bit dicey in terms of orthodoxy which was on social doctrine and the person started projecting her own politics into the situation. A few people called her out and that pretty much settled it. Other than that, it was great.

 

[iloveangels]

I am a convert and our RCIA program was very good. Not every teacher on the RCIA team was stellar, but the director was and she ran a pretty tight ship. Thankfully, there was only one occasion where things got a bit dicey in terms of orthodoxy which was on social doctrine and the person started projecting her own politics into the situation. A few people called her out and that pretty much settled it. Other than that, it was great.

You’re really lucky. Texas is different than the rest of the states in more ways thanTexans say, though.

EDIT: I’ll add to that. I visited Texas for a while a few years ago and was charmed with it. But it’s a lot different than many other parts of the country. More conservative, wealthier, bigger (Texans do claim that), nice people. In Texas they wave when you pass in your car. With all 5 fingers! And they talk to each other in the elevator. I live in the upper midwest. Those things aren’t so true here. Hmmmm.

I was staying in San Antonio and walking on the riverwalk. It started to rain just a little bit. Now, in my part of the country, you don’t go inside unless it’s coming down in buckets with lightning and funnel clouds. But this was just a little bit, with h.u.g.e. raindrops, and everybody started running. So I started running too, because I thought they might know something I didn’t. All the way back to the hotel. When I got there it was full of Texans sitting on the floor underneath the crystal chandeliers all talking to each other like they’d known each other for years. And I don’t mean 1 family. I mean bunches of people. Nice.

Where I live that doesn’t happen. We don’t educate out-of-staters on our state history either. . I really enjoyed Texas. Hope to go back someday and visit again.

 

[iloveangels]

Sorry for the Texas advertisement. I did like Texas though.

My point is that your RCIA was probably better than average and you got lucky. Across the country, many of them are very poorly done.

A few years ago my grown nephew, who’s Catholic b/c my sister’s a convert too, needed to be confirmed. So he was directed to complete RCIA as his preparation in lieu of a class. I was his sponsor so we went. It consisted of Liturgy Training Publication films and all kinds of oddities. That was it. I sat it out the best I could and so did he so that he could get confirmed.

My own RCIA was nice enough, I mean people were nice to me, but it was not at all informative. I didn’t learn anything, but then I’m a reader like you are and had read far ahead of anything we covered in that class. It was largely group discussion with no one having read anything ahead of time. So half of it was people who didn’t know anything saying to other people who didn’t know anything, “go ahead and say something. Please.” For me it served as a rite of passage, and I knew that at the time. I just got through it. That was the point of it.

The Old USCCB survey on RCIA…
old.usccb.org/evangelization/appendixc.shtml#partiii

 

[iloveangels]

Timing may have had something to do with it too. I’ve been in the Church for 27+ years now. I think you’re younger than I am. The 80s were strange in the Catholic Church, and I hear that the 70s were even stranger.