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TheRealJuliane
Guest
There ARE the 5 non-negotiables for Catholic voters, which are:
- Abortion (and it’s #1 for a reason)
- Euthanasia
- Homosexual marriage
- Embryonic stem cell research (because of #1)
- Human cloning
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kozlosap
Guest
I went to confession with my spiritual director last week because I was feeling very much the same way as the OP. He related to me that since the election he has had many similar conversations with both members of our parish AND fellow priests. I feel much better about my vote now!
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1ke
Guest
Actually for most of US history this has not been the case.
How quickly Catholic persecution in this country has been forgotten. Bishops have been speaking out against societal ills and immoral actions since the founding of the Church. That is their job. And when the government seeks to enact unjust laws, of course it is the Bishop’s job to inform the conscience of their flocks and to participate in the public square.
There is an intense and coordinated effort to remove people of religious conviction from public discourse. Freedom of religion is quickly being boxed in to the idea of freedom of worship-- the idea that one can go to church on Sunday and worship freely inside the walls but do not dare bring your religion into your life outside the walls.
That is a dangerous infection in our soiciety and the bishops have a big job battling it every day.
It is unrealistic for anyone to think that political participation can be separated from who we are as the Body of Christ. It is our DUTY to bring Christ to the world and to make society a better place by fighting unjust and immoral laws and practices.
We cannot allow ourselves to be evicted from the public square.
That some fail to carry their faith in to the public square with charity is a shortcoming of being human, and while it distresses the OP it should not surprise her.
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1ke
Guest
Instead of your gut reaction of closing your ears, having feelings of being persecuted for your voting choices (which is understandable), and rejecting even the mere idea that the bishops might have sonething worthwhile and legitimate to say-- why not dig a lot deeper into what the bishops have to say and why and how these apply to Catholic moral principles.
The bishops certainly work tirelessly for the poor, immigrants, and the other issues you mention so perhaps they do have some legitimate concerns about certain measures, candidates, and parties that we should listen to and really hear. No political system is perfect, and the bishops hav studied these issues closely and carefully. They have the weight and authority of Christ behind them, and what they say should definitely carry more weight than other sources by which we form our conscience.
Just a suggestion.
Dialog with your priest regarding conscience formation, Catholic moral and social teaching, and how you might apply those principles in the future. At the end of the day, if you still are convinced you need to vote for a candidate that the majority of your friends/fellow parishioners do not support then that is what you need to do…
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PRmerger
Guest
My question was a more general one. You don’t think it’s possible for someone’s soul to be in jeopardy for how he votes?
For example, is it possible for someone to go to hell if he votes for someone who advocates genocide, for that very reason: I think that some races need to be eliminated!
I certainly think it’s possible.
So I’m not sure why you find it offensive that a priest would be telling his flock that how you vote ought to be influenced by Christian principles.
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MidnightSun12
Guest
What if somebody living in 1930’s Germany thought that Hitler was the best man for the job and voted for him because he promised to build roads and fix the economy? Do you think such a person would be putting their souls in a disposition to get to heaven?
There are some things that simply disqualify a politician from ever being voted for. For example, if an American politician made a campaign speech where he mentioned a number of brilliant ideas for fixing the economy that would really improve poverty but then went on to say that he also happened to support slavery, do you think this politician would be making a second campaign speech? Absolutely not! There are some things that simply disqualify a person from ever being voted for regardless of how many other “good” ideas this politician might have. Advocating the brutal murder of millions of unborn children is one such disqualifier.
Make no mistake, voting in favor of abortion is a vote for hell.
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mlamg
Guest
What about murdering prisoners via capital punishment? That’s OK?
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Nimzovik
Guest
One can not justify a wrong by pointing to another wrong.
That aside. I, personally, IMHO, do indeed take issue with people that vote for a rabid abortionist. Why vote for one that advocates for the legality of not *only *abortion, but Partial Birth abortion as well? Why should we reward those that stand for that which is anathema to Our Faith? Please. Explain that to me. Why keep in power those that take away our religous freedoms?
This is living the Faith???
I will never understand this…
I do not** care** if Health Care is provided for all** free** of charge* forever*, when… the price is to allow babies to be killed.
Can this be *any *more clear?
Vote for one’s conscience. Not for one’s wallet.
That aside. I, personally, IMHO, do indeed take issue with people that vote for a rabid abortionist. Why vote for one that advocates for the legality of not *only *abortion, but Partial Birth abortion as well? Why should we reward those that stand for that which is anathema to Our Faith? Please. Explain that to me. Why keep in power those that take away our religous freedoms?
This is living the Faith???
I will never understand this…
I do not** care** if Health Care is provided for all** free** of charge* forever*, when… the price is to allow babies to be killed.
Can this be *any *more clear?
Vote for one’s conscience. Not for one’s wallet.
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PRmerger
Guest
No, mlamg. Murder is always wrong.
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MidnightSun12
Guest
To quote Pope Benedict when he was a cardinal:
"While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia."
There’s a very large difference between the wrongness of capital punishment and the evil of abortion.
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1ke
Guest
What does the Church teach about capital punishment?
First, it is not murder. Murder is an assault against the innocent. Capital punishment is a form of self defense.
Second, it is not intrinsically evil, which abortion and murder are. Meaning, it is not against God’s law by its very nature and it can be done morally.
Those who commit violent and heinous crimes commensurate with the punishment of death are not innocent. Society has a right and duty to protect those who are innocent from such perpetrators.
The Church tempers this moral truth, however, with the teaching that in modern times capital punishment is rarely needed and that there are serious flaws in the justice systems of the world which call into question the purpose and the implementation of such penalties.
So, can capital punishment exist in a just society? Yes
Is that carte blanche permission for implementing the death penalty? No.
Abortion, an intrinsically evil attack against the most innocent and vulnerable among us cannot be compared to capital punishment. Frankly, I think it is a straw man argument.
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1ke
Guest
Yes, correct, even murdering prisoners is wrong. This is what totalitarian governments have done and continue to do to their own people and prisoners of war to exact revenge, induce fear, shut down opposition. Capital punishment, misused, is murder.
Capital punishment is not intrinsically murder, however.
An important distinction.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
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Nimzovik
Guest
Indeed. When one can’t win… distract! Classic.
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mlamg
Guest
Distract? Are you kidding me?
Capital punishment as self defense is the most absurd thing I’ve ever heard. These people are strapped to a table and murdered. They could live their life out in prison. Why is that life, and the lives of innocent people lost in war, not as important as the unborn or the terminally ill?
Conception to NATURAL DEATH, not human-given death. Didn’t Jesus stop people from stoning each other??
It’s more like you’re picking and choosing what life is more important.
Capital punishment as self defense is the most absurd thing I’ve ever heard. These people are strapped to a table and murdered. They could live their life out in prison. Why is that life, and the lives of innocent people lost in war, not as important as the unborn or the terminally ill?
Conception to NATURAL DEATH, not human-given death. Didn’t Jesus stop people from stoning each other??
It’s more like you’re picking and choosing what life is more important.
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mlamg
Guest
WIN??? Is this a competition to see who is the most holy?Indeed. When one can’t win… distract! Classic.
That’s what is always comes down to on these forums. I’m done. Episcopal Church, here I come.
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PRmerger
Guest
No, mlamg.
This is a discussion forum. Where we discuss religious issues.
Sometimes someone wins the argument.
There was nothing said about anyone being more holy.
As long as you can honestly say that you are not searching for a church that conforms to your own views, rather you are searching for the Church that Jesus established…
Otherwise, you are creating a church in your own image.
(Please note: there was no Episcopal Church in the 1st through 16th centuries.)
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Allegra
Guest
One does not have to chose which life is more important. One only has to look at the number of lives being lost. The number of children murdered each day by abortion is many many times over the number of criminals executed in a decade. If it is a situation where one must chose on or the other, (and it is a complete injustice when it is) and a person choses the lives of a very few criminals over thousands and thousands of innocent children, aren’t they putting more value on the lives of the criminals?
Meanwhile, try explaining that capitol punishment is not defense to a mother or family member of someone who was murdered in prison. I happen to know of one such person. His brother was in prison for three months because he was involved in a group of boys who broke into an uninhabited house and caused a fire. He was two months past his 18th birthday when it happened and ten days shy of being 19 when he was convicted. While in prison, he was beaten and killed by three other convicts, two of which were supposed to be serving life sentences. Some individuals are too dangerous to attempt to control. My coworker’s brother had a very good chance of coming out of his sentence and getting on with his life. Apparantly, he had been a good student and even had been offered a scholarship to college before he was arrested.
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Incomplete
Guest
Please don’t base such an important decision on forums. Or on some Catholics in your life telling you that you should leave. The real question is this: is the Church who she claims to be? If her claims are right, then that is where you belong, where all of us belong.
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