Not to rain on Montgomery, Alabama's parade

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JohnStrachan said:
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HopkinsReb:
Good luck convincing a board full of Catholics that the government should provide people with free contraceptives.

Abortion is an evil, but it isn’t the only evil. We shouldn’t fight one evil by engaging in another.

And of course we should work to eradicate poverty and economically support mothers. What do you think the hordes of Catholic charities are doing? You’re preaching to the choir on these things to distract from the question of whether it should be legal to butcher babies by the millions
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I’m not trying to convince you. I’m trying to flesh out the different perspectives on this issue. I’m as prolife as one can be - financially supporting BirthRight International and having volunteered at a home for pregnant teens.

But we seem to spend so much energy trying to fine a legal solution when the state avoids programs that would lead to fewer abortions. I find it immoral that a country as wealthy as the US argues about providing universal health care for its citizens. I find it immoral that the US does not provide universal post natal care and paid maternity leave.
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If murder were legal in general, priority #1 for stopping it would be making it illegal. That doesn’t ignore the reality that there are many other factors that go into a high homicide rate. Of course we should pay attention to other factors that contribute to high abortion rates. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t focus on the legal aspect.

Abortionists should be locked in prison for the rest of their lives. It’s a matter of both protecting the innocent and justice for the perpetrators and victims.

I disagree with you on universal healthcare, but that’s whatever; reasonable people can disagree on the most effective approach to healthcare.
 
JohnStrachan said:
I find it immoral that the US does not provide universal post natal care and paid maternity leave.
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This is the ,“entitlement mentality.” Socialism does not work. We need to find a better way. Socialism leads to corruption, like Venezuela for example.

How does morality enter into private reproductive power which is a person’s private and personal responsibility and not the responsibility of the state?
 
There are options for the state’s providing or subsidizing post-natal care that fall far short of socialism.
 
So everyone is their own island? I don’t think so. A choice like this affects everyone.
 
Every western democratic country has socialized medicine with the exception of the US. What is wrong with the tax base supporting universal access? As it is, the US has the most expensive system in the G7, MDs and hospitals extort their clients and millions of Americans can’t afford any coverage. There is no justice in this model.
 
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JohnStrachan said:
Every western democratic country has socialized medicine with the exception of the US.
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This is not true. Switzerland, for example, does not have socialized medicine.

There is a difference between socialized and universal healthcare. Socialized means that the government owns all of the healthcare systems; England would be an example. Many other Western countries do not have this system.
 
False. I know someone who lives in a country with socialized medicine. A lot of time is lost just waiting for an appointment. Symptoms usually don’t improve and the patient continues to be in pain, dizzy, etc.

“The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.”
 
In the US, the false idea being spread is that each person is isolated from every other.
 
edwest211 said:
False. I know someone who lives in a country with socialized medicine. A lot of time is lost just waiting for an appointment. Symptoms usually don’t improve and the patient continues to be in pain, dizzy, etc.

“The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.”
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Some folks have never learned Sowell’s great maxim, “there are no solutions; only trade-offs.” Some refuse to see that there are negatives to socialized or universal healthcare. Likewise, some refuse to see that there are negatives to a completely free market in healthcare.
 
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HopkinsReb said:
There is a difference between socialized and universal healthcare. Socialized means that the government owns all of the healthcare systems; England would be an example. Many other Western countries do not have this system.
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Let me rephrase this then, not all universal healthcare is socialized, but all socialized healthcare is universal.

I think you know the point I was trying to make. I believe access to healthcare is a right and should be universally available.
 
tax base supporting universal access
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We don’t do what is necessary to build a system of health care. Too much corruption and a drive for power and wealth. Many things could be done. The economics of that kind of system is not very easy to comprehend.
However, pointing a gun at someone and saying that they need to give in the name of charity is not going to work.
 
HopkinsReb said:
Some folks have never learned Sowell’s great maxim, “there are no solutions; only trade-offs.” Some refuse to see that there are negatives to socialized or universal healthcare. Likewise, some refuse to see that there are negatives to a completely free market in healthcare.
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Does this same maxim apply to abortion?
 
JohnStrachan said:
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HopkinsReb:
There is a difference between socialized and universal healthcare. Socialized means that the government owns all of the healthcare systems; England would be an example. Many other Western countries do not have this system.
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Let me rephrase this then, not all universal healthcare is socialized, but all socialized healthcare is universal.

I think you know the point I was trying to make. I believe access to healthcare is a right and should be universally available.
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Then say that. Words have meanings.

And it’s not true that all socialized healthcare is universal. North Koreans do not have universal access to healthcare.
JohnStrachan said:
Does this same maxim apply to abortion?
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Have I stated that there are no negative effects whatsoever to abortion bans? Have I not stated repeatedly that they will fail to completely halt abortion?
 
HopkinsReb said:
Have I stated that there are no negative effects whatsoever to abortion bans? Have I not stated repeatedly that they will fail to completely halt abortion?
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So this appeals to the moral imperative that all life is sacred, correct? But it doesn’t mean there won’t be consequences if I follow correctly.
 
JohnStrachan said:
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HopkinsReb:
Have I stated that there are no negative effects whatsoever to abortion bans? Have I not stated repeatedly that they will fail to completely halt abortion?
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So this appeals to the moral imperative that all life is sacred, correct? But it doesn’t mean there won’t be consequences if I follow correctly.
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You seem to follow correctly.
 
edwest211 said:
In the US, the false idea being spread is that each person is isolated from every other.
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I’m not sure what this means?
We help one another.
USA is the most generous country in the world.

Reproductive power is the responsibility of each individual. Why is this a false idea? No Government law can force a person to take responsibility for their reproduction. If we continue to offer abortion as an option as a birth control then there will be no end the number of abortions. 1.5 billion world wide since 1980. Even one abortion is abominable.
 
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