Not tonight, not ever

[joseph123]

NFP has always been rather difficult for me since I usually work opposite shifts with my wife’s infertile days and opportunities for intimacy are exceedingly rare. Over the past six months, I am finding that complete abstinence is easier than periodic abstinence, because as William Robinson once said, “a taste of honey is worse than none at all”. I have heard before that you need a sufficiently grave reason to deny your spouse. Is refusing to fulfill the “marriage debt” a serious sin or even a sin at all?

 

[ComputerGeek25]

NFP has always been rather difficult for me since I usually work opposite shifts with my wife’s infertile days and opportunities for intimacy are exceedingly rare. Over the past six months, I am finding that complete abstinence is easier than periodic abstinence, because as William Robinson once said, “a taste of honey is worse than none at all”. I have heard before that you need a sufficiently grave reason to deny your spouse. Is refusing to fulfill the “marriage debt” a serious sin or even a sin at all?

The circumstances determine whether it is sinful or not.

Based on the facts you have given, I would say complete abstience is ok as long as both of you discuss it and are ok with it. However, your wife and yourself may want to set some more reasonable expectations regarding intamate time - you guys make have to set aside an hour or two to be intamate.

The sin occurs when one spouse is with-holding for no good reason (i.e. they have a headache every night) and reasonable expectations are not set or met.

 

[jwashu]

I guess it might work for some…

However lets remember that the Marital union is the re-newing of the Marital Covenant. For a Sacramental marriage I don’t see how it can’t be a part of life. To me it would be like going to Mass each week and abstaining, by choice, from the Eucharist.

Both can be done by and may be done for a good reason from time to time but I believe God wants us to be with our spouses for our physical, psychological and spiritual health.

Joe

 

[whatevergirl]

NFP has always been rather difficult for me since I usually work opposite shifts with my wife’s infertile days and opportunities for intimacy are exceedingly rare. Over the past six months, I am finding that complete abstinence is easier than periodic abstinence, because as William Robinson once said, “a taste of honey is worse than none at all”. I have heard before that you need a sufficiently grave reason to deny your spouse. Is refusing to fulfill the “marriage debt” a serious sin or even a sin at all?

Do you look at the marital embrace as a ‘debt’ to pay? That might be part of the issue. I think that NFP has its challenges, no doubt. But, abstaining completely because it’s ‘easier’ than abstaining periodically…is probably not a good reason to ‘refuse’ your spouse. I think that if your wife and you have agreed to NFP, try to find ways to look at it positively…

I think that while it can be tough, it can be quite rewarding…joyful…humbling. I think that refusing our spouses often enough, can lead to chaos. Refusing now and again for various reasonable reasons, is one thing, but not refusing because you just don’t like the method. It is what it is, and I highly suggest you and your wife find a way…or ways…to view it in a more positive light. I’ll be praying that things improve for you both in this area.

 

[baylee]

This doesn’t seem an appropriate avenue to take. You and your wife need to discuss this…make sure that you and your wife are on the SAME page.

 

[joseph123]

Do you look at the marital embrace as a ‘debt’ to pay?

Not really, marriage debt refers to the obligation to have sex with your spouse when it is reasonably asked for. I guess the question I am asking would be: is having to use NFP a good enough reason to not render the marriage debt? I find NFP to be too burdensome to bother with and have found it easier to live without sex.

 

[ChristinaM]

Not really, marriage debt refers to the obligation to have sex with your spouse when it is reasonably asked for. I guess the question I am asking would be: is having to use NFP a good enough reason to not render the marriage debt? I find NFP to be too burdensome to bother with and have found it easier to live without sex.

Maybe you should re-examine the reasons you’re trying to avoid right now. Remember that to use NFP properly we must use it with prayer and discernment. What is standing in the way of you having a child right now? Are your reasons really serious enough to justify not having sex with your wife ever? Perhaps most importantly, how does your wife feel about this state of affairs?

 

[whatevergirl]

Not really, marriage debt refers to the obligation to have sex with your spouse when it is reasonably asked for. I guess the question I am asking would be: is having to use NFP a good enough reason to not render the marriage debt? I find NFP to be too burdensome to bother with and have found it easier to live without sex.

I see…ok. Well, since you become one with your wife in marriage, then it would stand to reason that she has a say. So, unless you both agree that ‘for the time being’ let’s abstain…and it’s joyful agreement, then it would be fine. But, if one or the other is not in agreement, that is where strife begins. You’re your own person, joseph, but when it comes to marital issues, you both are one, and all decisions need to be made for the betterment of your marriage. I think that whle NFP can at first, create some mechanical setbacks between a couple, I have found it to be a positive thing in my own marriage, because it creates want…desire…and sometime refraining from acting on impulses immediately, is not a bad thing. I don’t recommend not having sex with your beautiful bride. This is God’s gift to married couples, albeit it comes with as set of rules to help us not becoming obsessed with sex, or look to our partners as objects. I think that you and your wife can find a happy medium here, just have to keep at it. God bless.

 

[Seatuck]

Maybe you both need to see what you can do about the work schedule or schedules. Chances are the marital embrace is not the only area of your marriage that is strained.
Or perhaps you could be a bit more creative and less limiting as to how/when you are intimate.

 

[manualman]

As a guy myself, I also understand the frustrations and burdens of NFP when using to avoid pregnancy. But you may also be suffering from the effects of our sexually toxic culture. I’m still in the stage of transitioning from married sex viewed as a “license to lust” to a more full expression of love for each other.

It’s not just a “taste of honey,” but a taste of real union. The honey is only a part of the story. When it hogs the whole stage all sorts of imbalances begin to occur (whether you work swing shift or not!).

I’m currently reading “Theology of the Body for Beginners” by Christopher West. Major change in attitude from the way I’ve seen sex ever since puberty. It takes time and endurance to make the change, but it is worth it!

 

[monicatholic]

joseph, i think healthy people abstaining indefinitely from marital relations with a loving partner is a very bad idea and a misunderstanding of the vocation of marriage.

my husband has worked a swing shift-- changing every single week for 22 years. we have kids. we’ve had to be magicians to practice NFP those time we felt a grave reason to avoid pregnancy, yet still be together on non-fertile days.

sure it’s a pain. but a burden? finding ways/ times/ opportunities to love each other isn’t a burden.

back to the old drawing board, i guess.

 

[mrpathetic]

Quite honestly, if I were faced with this perdicament - I would find another job. But then again, that’s just me.

I have not had marital relations with my wife for 15 years now. I find it unbearable, but I have no choice, as my wife is a chronic refuser. She has told me emphatically, that she will never have sex with me, again. (See my thread, labeled “sexual denial and sin”, further down in the forum, if you want all the gory details.)

If I were in your shoes, and if I had a wife who willing to have sex with me, I would do whatever it took, to make it happen. I would quit my job, find another shift, get a new profession, buy a cheaper house, give up watching sports… well, maybe not that…

Seriously, you and your wife need to get life priorities straight. Sex is the bond that sustains a healthy marriage. This bond cannot be substituted with. You cannot replace it with money, or power, or social status, or even children. If there is no sex life in your marriage, it will eventually suffer. And we all know what that can eventually lead to.

Now, I am going to say something extremely controversial next. If you don’t want to be offended, or lose sleep tonight, don’t read on…

================================================================

I am convinced that this is much of the reason behind the divorce epidemic among Catholics. In my country alone (the USA), there are approximately 6 million divorced Catholics. (This figure is an estimate, since many of these Catholics are schismatics or apostates.) This is an epidemic, and it is to the shame of this generation, that this has taken place.

Why is this? Our church does an extremely bad job of pre-Canaa counseling. More to the point, it does a poor job of counseling on this specific topic - the importance of sexuality in a regular marriage.

Our pre-Canaa programs do an effective job of teaching the sacramental nature of marriage, its permanence, fecundity, etc. But I recall zero sex education, as part of the pre-Canaa counseling. Nothing. It is as if the people who ran the program assumed I and my wife would simply have sex forever! What a waste. I wish I could go back to the folks who ran my pre-Canaa program 20 years ago, and ask for my money back…with interest.

joseph123, if you want your marriage to last, start having sex with your spouse. Regularly. At least once a week. Practice the NFP, if you must, but don’t permanently abstain.

 

[baylee]

Sex is the bond that sustains a healthy marriage. If there is no sex life in your marriage, it will eventually suffer. And we all know what that can eventually lead to.

Our pre-Canaa programs do an effective job of teaching the sacramental nature of marriage, its permanence, fecundity, etc. But I recall zero sex education, as part of the pre-Canaa counseling. Nothing.

I agree with you completely.

I would take it one step further and say not only must there be sex, the couple must be on the same page regarding their views about sex. If not, the marriage will suffer to some extent as well…although the effects may not be as obvious and immediate as when there is no sex at all.

Re: your comments about pre-cana…I thought back and, although they did spend quite a bit of time discussing NFP, I do NOT remember detailed discussions/guidance regarding married sex. I really think I would remember if there was discussion about oral sex, etc.

 

[Col40]

NFP has always been rather difficult for me since I usually work opposite shifts with my wife’s infertile days and opportunities for intimacy are exceedingly rare. Over the past six months, I am finding that complete abstinence is easier than periodic abstinence, because as William Robinson once said, “a taste of honey is worse than none at all”. I have heard before that you need a sufficiently grave reason to deny your spouse. Is refusing to fulfill the “marriage debt” a serious sin or even a sin at all?

I feel for you bud! I’m the wife in an NFP couple who is very much into avoiding pregnancy–pretty much, we’re at the age in our lives where we’re done having kids, my cycles are getting weirder (hence, less dry days), and since our practioner is recommending “end of days” only, with two kids who can outlast us for energy at night, it sucks. My libido tends to wain by the end of the day, too, because that’s when all the stress of the day starts to come out and I don’t feel “in the mood” as much as I might have earlier in the day. I feel bad for my husband because he’s always in the mood.

Lately, I’ve had a lot of doubts about NFP in general and the church’s teaching on family planning once you reach a certain age or you have just reason for limiting your family size. I enjoy sex, but I don’t enjoy the fear of “what if I missed something” in my observations, as I’m always rushed. The church needs something for couples who are done with childbearing but still trying to be faithful to the churches teachings. The idea of being open to God’s blessings of babies is one thing when you’re in your 20s or 30s, another when you’re mid 40s.

As for the other poster–our Pre-Cana program does bring include a lecture on Theology of the Body and human sexuality. Not all ignore the subject! But yes, 20 years ago, it was still all about rhythm, so…I can see your point.

 

[newbetx]

NFP has always been rather difficult for me since I usually work opposite shifts with my wife’s infertile days and opportunities for intimacy are exceedingly rare. Over the past six months, I am finding that complete abstinence is easier than periodic abstinence, because as William Robinson once said, “a taste of honey is worse than none at all”. I have heard before that you need a sufficiently grave reason to deny your spouse. Is refusing to fulfill the “marriage debt” a serious sin or even a sin at all?

I understand. PA can cause some ugly mood swings in men, too. But to deny is wrong (It’s OK if you two agree to it). While some may not believe it, PA can bring on suffering to the male. It’s part of the deal. Suffer along. Eventually it may work itself out. As TOB points out, suffering can be part of the process of love.

Peace.

 

[PaulinVA]

Lately, I’ve had a lot of doubts about NFP in general and the church’s teaching on family planning once you reach a certain age or you have just reason for limiting your family size. I enjoy sex, but I don’t enjoy the fear of “what if I missed something” in my observations, as I’m always rushed. The church needs something for couples who are done with childbearing but still trying to be faithful to the churches teachings. The idea of being open to God’s blessings of babies is one thing when you’re in your 20s or 30s, another when you’re mid 40s.

Well, there’s open to life and there’s trying to conceive.

The Church’s teaching is consistent, no matter how old or fertile one is. The question is really one that no one on this forum has been able to answer. If your family is “built out” and you don’t envision any more (due to economic/emotional or whatever considerations) , can you then use NFP until menopause?

That’s the question. I think you are asking for something more, but I can’t imagine what that would be.

 

[JACQUE_D]

Well heres a reality check. I’m in my early fourties, and husband is in late fourties. I’ve given birth to six children. I’m not doing it any more. I avoid my husband like the plague. Why? Can you imagine a pot bellied, drunken, tobacco smelling man slobbering over you? NO WAY. It makes me sick. This is my reality. No, he won’t quit drinking or smoking. No, he won’t do marriage councelling. And no, he won’t do NFP, although he is Catholic. As I said, I am not bringing any more babies into this world. I cannot afford them. I work to support the family, as the man of the house has other priorities with his pay. It shouldn’t be called a ‘debt’, it should be called a burden for some of us. I’m sure there are some happy and loving couples out there, you’re so blessed. Its a dream for me. But spare a thought for the rest of us. My dear aunty had nine children before she moved into her own room with a lock on the door.
:tsktsk::dts:
Jacqueline in NewZealand.

 

[Jermosh]

Study 1 Cor7, St Paul talks about the grave dangers of not having sex in a marriage. Sex is a biological instinct and it drives most of what we do in some form or function, but our society makes it unnatural and harder for us to have control of it. I would seriously talk and bring your pastor or another couple into the discussion.

 

[JACQUE_D]

Its futile. Husband is outside at the moment, passed out through drinking. It is 12.15am here in NewZealand. I am aware that this is an extremely common problem. The Church needs to take these men and shake them. Its always the wife who must submit to the man, sure, but WOW. I need the Catholic church as my support- my leader- and to help me.
:ehh::dts:

 

[Col40]

Its futile. Husband is outside at the moment, passed out through drinking. It is 12.15am here in NewZealand. I am aware that this is an extremely common problem. The Church needs to take these men and shake them. Its always the wife who must submit to the man, sure, but WOW. I need the Catholic church as my support- my leader- and to help me.
:ehh::dts:

Can you go to counseling alone? Your problem is bigger than NFP–your husband has an addiction–actually two. He needs help…and that’s going to be hard if he doesn’t want to accept that he has a problem and take the steps to become well again. It’s more than just turning you off—he’s negatively impacting his health. If he’s drinking to the point that he’s passing out on a regular basis—he’s got a serious problem.

As far as the church goes—I don’t believe the church expects you to stay in a home with someone who is unwilling to help themselves get well. Start with getting help for both of you, and if he refuses, then consider what your options are in raising your family alone.