Not tonight, not ever

[mrpathetic]

Its futile. Husband is outside at the moment, passed out through drinking. It is 12.15am here in NewZealand. I am aware that this is an extremely common problem. The Church needs to take these men and shake them. Its always the wife who must submit to the man, sure, but WOW. I need the Catholic church as my support- my leader- and to help me.
:ehh::dts:

You need to begin setting boundaries in your relationship with your husband. You need to present to him a choice - yourself, or the bottle.

This is a book by Cloud and Townsend, called Boundaries in Marriage. I strongly recommend you pick up a copy, and read it. If you cannot get it in harcopy form in New Zealand, you can download the eBook off the internet.

I read it, and it has made a difference in my life, and in my marriage.

 

[redtech]

NFP has always been rather difficult for me since I usually work opposite shifts with my wife’s infertile days and opportunities for intimacy are exceedingly rare. Over the past six months, I am finding that complete abstinence is easier than periodic abstinence, because as William Robinson once said, “a taste of honey is worse than none at all”. I have heard before that you need a sufficiently grave reason to deny your spouse. Is refusing to fulfill the “marriage debt” a serious sin or even a sin at all?

How does your wife feel about it?

 

[redtech]

Well heres a reality check. I’m in my early fourties, and husband is in late fourties. I’ve given birth to six children. I’m not doing it any more. I avoid my husband like the plague. Why? Can you imagine a pot bellied, drunken, tobacco smelling man slobbering over you? NO WAY. It makes me sick. This is my reality. No, he won’t quit drinking or smoking. No, he won’t do marriage councelling. And no, he won’t do NFP, although he is Catholic. As I said, I am not bringing any more babies into this world. I cannot afford them. I work to support the family, as the man of the house has other priorities with his pay. It shouldn’t be called a ‘debt’, it should be called a burden for some of us. I’m sure there are some happy and loving couples out there, you’re so blessed. Its a dream for me. But spare a thought for the rest of us. My dear aunty had nine children before she moved into her own room with a lock on the door.
:tsktsk::dts:
Jacqueline in NewZealand.

 

[joseph123]

How does your wife feel about it?

She isn’t happy that we don’t share the same bed any more but she is less worried knowing that she isn’t pregnant. We know lots and lots of people using Sympto-Thermal and we have never seen it work for anyone so we are really skeptical.

 

[mrpathetic]

Well heres a reality check. I’m in my early fourties, and husband is in late fourties. I’ve given birth to six children. I’m not doing it any more. I avoid my husband like the plague. Why? Can you imagine a pot bellied, drunken, tobacco smelling man slobbering over you? NO WAY. It makes me sick. This is my reality. No, he won’t quit drinking or smoking. No, he won’t do marriage councelling. And no, he won’t do NFP, although he is Catholic. As I said, I am not bringing any more babies into this world. I cannot afford them. I work to support the family, as the man of the house has other priorities with his pay. It shouldn’t be called a ‘debt’, it should be called a burden for some of us. I’m sure there are some happy and loving couples out there, you’re so blessed. Its a dream for me. But spare a thought for the rest of us. My dear aunty had nine children before she moved into her own room with a lock on the door.
:tsktsk::dts:
Jacqueline in NewZealand.

Drunkenness is a valid reason to deny someone the marriage debt.

See lesson 30 here:

olrl.org/Lessons/

What is the marriage debt?
The “marriage debt” means that a married person is obliged, under penalty of mortal sin, to give his (or her) married partner sexual intercourse whenever it is reasonably asked for.
Lawful excuses for refusing: Adultery, sickness, drunkenness, insanity, non-support, danger to an unborn baby.

 

[Matt33]

She isn’t happy that we don’t share the same bed any more but she is less worried knowing that she isn’t pregnant. We know lots and lots of people using Sympto-Thermal and we have never seen it work for anyone so we are really skeptical.

I could be reading into things here but my wife and I have been frustrated with NFP before too. I think the “Not ever” Policy is really just a way to avoid and express frustration, meant to punish yourself and your spouse. I have slept in different rooms, told my wife that we just won’t do it, made her feel like she was the sex nazi. when really it was just frustration. Honestly, a marriage need intimacy, and definately need two people in the same bed. the fact that you have to phisically be somewhere else only exclamates my point that it is more about punishment than love. What is the 'valid reason" you can’t be open to life now? medical, mental health, or is it just an inconvienience for you?

Also, the more you abstain, to punish or to “be safe” the better odds that one of two things wil happen…1: You will not have the unitive aspect of marriage and you will not survive it. or 2: you will freak out and throw caution to the wind at a “dangerous” time in her cycle.

I do get it though… making a decision to not embrace, sure can seem like it would beat getting let down, dissapointed, frustrated, or rejected over and over again. But it doesn’t.

 

[Matt33]

Its futile. Husband is outside at the moment, passed out through drinking. It is 12.15am here in NewZealand. I am aware that this is an extremely common problem. The Church needs to take these men and shake them. Its always the wife who must submit to the man, sure, but WOW. I need the Catholic church as my support- my leader- and to help me.
:ehh::dts:

I have seen you post your situation before, and I know you need help and I do, ache for you. But try to remember that (especially in this thread) most of the world and most marriges are not like yours, yours is an abnormal situation. I do hope you get the help and understanding and wisdom you need.

 

[LilyM]

Are you NFPers aware that you can now get ‘fertility tests’ from the chemist - similar to pregnancy tests? Adds an extra bit of reassurance during those times when the body cues might be a bit uncertain.

 

[joseph123]

I could be reading into things here but my wife and I have been frustrated with NFP before too. I think the “Not ever” Policy is really just a way to avoid and express frustration, meant to punish yourself and your spouse. I have slept in different rooms, told my wife that we just won’t do it, made her feel like she was the sex nazi. when really it was just frustration. Honestly, a marriage need intimacy, and definately need two people in the same bed. the fact that you have to phisically be somewhere else only exclamates my point that it is more about punishment than love. What is the 'valid reason" you can’t be open to life now? medical, mental health, or is it just an inconvienience for you?

The valid reason is that my wife spent her entire last pregnancy on bed rest and another child would be too much for her system right now. I would like another child right now and so would my wife but it just isn’t possible.

Using NFP is very stressful – my wife and I discuss the signs and symptoms for hours as foreplay, then I follow it up with hoping I didn’t just put my wife in danger or maybe kill her. It just isn’t worth it. All of the men I know who use NFP have done so unsuccessfully and placed their wives and children in very real danger. So yes, the reason I deny my wife is NFP, but what else can I do? Everyone I know who uses NFP just uses plop 'till you drop. Has this NFP ever worked for anyone?

 

[Matt33]

The valid reason is that my wife spent her entire last pregnancy on bed rest and another child would be too much for her system right now. I would like another child right now and so would my wife but it just isn’t possible.

Using NFP is very stressful – my wife and I discuss the signs and symptoms for hours as foreplay, then I follow it up with hoping I didn’t just put my wife in danger or maybe kill her. It just isn’t worth it. All of the men I know who use NFP have done so unsuccessfully and placed their wives and children in very real danger. So yes, the reason I deny my wife is NFP, but what else can I do? Everyone I know who uses NFP just uses plop 'till you drop. Has this NFP ever worked for anyone?

The way you describe your use of NFP and other peoples use of it leads me to believe that it is being misapplied. This isn’t to negate your true and honest feeling but to suggest that you delve into NFP,(become an expert) so to speak Your wife will appreciate your effort and you can allieviate some worry and guilt afterward. Seriously, see a fertility expert, doctor or sucessful knowlegable NFPers. kudoes to you and the wife for not taking the ABC easy way out and at least fighting this struggle. That is holy. However I think the frustration has you not seeing clearly.

 

[LilyM]

The valid reason is that my wife spent her entire last pregnancy on bed rest and another child would be too much for her system right now. I would like another child right now and so would my wife but it just isn’t possible.

Using NFP is very stressful – my wife and I discuss the signs and symptoms for hours as foreplay, then I follow it up with hoping I didn’t just put my wife in danger or maybe kill her. It just isn’t worth it. All of the men I know who use NFP have done so unsuccessfully and placed their wives and children in very real danger. So yes, the reason I deny my wife is NFP, but what else can I do? Everyone I know who uses NFP just uses plop 'till you drop. Has this NFP ever worked for anyone?

You sound like the perfect candidate for popping over to the pharmacy and getting some of those fertility tests I was talking about - works pretty much like pregnancy tests but in reverse.

 

[Dtmccameron]

Just because someone said something does not make it true. Search for the real truth in Jesus Christ. You and your spouse are able to find time to eat and do laundry and shop and do other things right?

I reckon laundry to be more necessary than fruitless sex. After all, they’ld be timing just so in order that the point is missed. Whereas, not having clean underwear, now that’s likely to start more trouble than “not having a kid we’re taking every precaution no to make, thank you science”.

Seems to me that, well, it’s easy to come to St. Paul’s conclusion. The way I’ve seen some folks cling on to that one thing that belongs solely to them, well, I reckon they only got married 'cause they’ld be doing it anyway. That’s not how it is, simply how it looks from my perspective.

 

[PaulinVA]

Using NFP is very stressful – my wife and I discuss the signs and symptoms for hours as foreplay, then I follow it up with hoping I didn’t just put my wife in danger or maybe kill her. It just isn’t worth it. All of the men I know who use NFP have done so unsuccessfully and placed their wives and children in very real danger. So yes, the reason I deny my wife is NFP, but what else can I do? Everyone I know who uses NFP just uses plop 'till you drop. Has this NFP ever worked for anyone?

Joseph, my wife and I have been using the SymptoThermal Method of NFP for 19 years, to achieve pregnancy and to avoid pregnancy. It has been 100% successful.

I feel for your frustration. Do some research. Find a teaching couple or professional or whatever to help you. There are some days that are almost totally safe.

 

[JACQUE_D]

I have seen you post your situation before, and I know you need help and I do, ache for you. But try to remember that (especially in this thread) most of the world and most marriges are not like yours, yours is an abnormal situation. I do hope you get the help and understanding and wisdom you need.

Tonight he has left me. He has packed his belongings after 18 years and walked out. My heart is heavy, but it was the right thing, as he was drunk tonight and wanted me to give him money. I refused and told him to choose his family or his alcohol and friends. Well he made his decision. My youngest daughter was upset, but her brothers settled her. All I ask now is for your prayers to give me strength.
:sad_yes:

 

[mrpathetic]

Tonight he has left me. He has packed his belongings after 18 years and walked out. My heart is heavy, but it was the right thing, as he was drunk tonight and wanted me to give him money. I refused and told him to choose his family or his alcohol and friends. Well he made his decision. My youngest daughter was upset, but her brothers settled her. All I ask now is for your prayers to give me strength.
:sad_yes:

You will be in our prayers. You have received our advice, and apparently followed it. Your husband ultimately has a choice - to live up to his familiar responsibilities, or to avoid them. Unfortunately, he has chosen the later, rather than the former.

God willing, your husband will see the error of his ways, and repent. He will turn sober, return to his family, and begin fulfilling his responsibilities, as husband and father.

Sometimes, people have to hit rock bottom, before they can begin rising. I have seen it in my own personal life. I hope you will see it in yours.

In the meantime, you need to prepare for life as a single mother. The unfortunate reality is that you may have little choice. You can leverage the ministries of the Church, through times like this. Do not feel to proud, to ask for help. Some ministries, such as the St. Vincent de Paul Society, were built specifically for instances such as this.

You will be in our prayers. Although you are half a planet away - Our Lady will be listening today - and I will ask for Her intercession, on your behalf. That’s a promise.

 

[turtle18]

I guess it might work for some…

However lets remember that the Marital union is the re-newing of the Marital Covenant. For a Sacramental marriage I don’t see how it can’t be a part of life. To me it would be like going to Mass each week and abstaining, by choice, from the Eucharist.

Both can be done by and may be done for a good reason from time to time but I believe God wants us to be with our spouses for our physical, psychological and spiritual health.

Joe

That is such a bad analogy. If you receive Jesus in the Eucharist, you are not putting yourself in danger of sin. Why are some always trying to compare receiving the Eucharist to the act of sex? Yikes, it seems like the only way some people can ever relate to anything is by comparing it to sex.

 

[Matt33]

Tonight he has left me. He has packed his belongings after 18 years and walked out. My heart is heavy, but it was the right thing, as he was drunk tonight and wanted me to give him money. I refused and told him to choose his family or his alcohol and friends. Well he made his decision. My youngest daughter was upset, but her brothers settled her. All I ask now is for your prayers to give me strength.
:sad_yes:

I pray for your strength. May the holy way be the way you will be led down.

 

[agapewolf]

That is such a bad analogy. If you receive Jesus in the Eucharist, you are not putting yourself in danger of sin. Why are some always trying to compare receiving the Eucharist to the act of sex? Yikes, it seems like the only way some people can ever relate to anything is by comparing it to sex.

Because as JPII said, the marital analogy is the best analogy given to us in the bible.

“This is my body given for you” It is complete self gift in which new life is made.
Marriage on earth is an icon that points to the heavenly marriage.

Read Theology of the body, Song of Songs, and St. Augustine.

 

[PilgrimSong]

My husband and I have been married over 25 years and have seven children. Mostly we’ve been open to children and have spaced them with pregnancy and breastfeeding, but after the birth of our youngest, age 9, I had a serious blood clot…DVT…in my thigh which was enormous. We were told that, though another pregnancy could possibly be managed, it would be difficult, and I would most likely have to take blood thinners of some kind during pregnancy.

So…we used NFP to avoid another pregnancy. My cycles didn’t start until our son was 15months old, due to breastfeeding, but I was watching my signs. It wasn’t always easy, especially when I was waiting for my cycles to begin and not quite knowing when they would!

I’m 47 now and definitely pre-menopausal, with very long cycles, maybe only a few per year. We did not ever sleep in separate beds or decide we would completely abstain, even when my cycles were more regular. We prayed and communicated to each other what we were thinking and feeling.

So yes, there are people with serious health issues who do use NFP effectively.

I will pray for you and your wife. Find a good Catholic doctor and a holy priest who can help you. God bless!