Not too impressed with the Knights of Columbus

[Dietrich]

Let me start by saying I am a 3rd Degree Knight of Columbus. For years, I labored under the impression that it was just a group of quasi-Catholic drunks and rowdies. A few things happened that made me change my mind completely and I committed myself to be coming a Knight, and to striving to be the best one I could.

I have seen these Catholic men do very noble and charitable things. I’ve seen them spend countless hours in service to some people with great needs locally and globally. I completely subscribe to their mission of being Catholic gentleman. But when I contemplate my interactions with them on a personal level, or in a group setting apart from the main meetings. I am very unimpressed and a little disillusioned.

It turns out that to a large extent they do seem to be a bunch of rowdies and drunks. I was at a gathering last night of some Knights in my rural area, and shortly after a prayer in the passing of the hat to raise money for charity, the sex jokes, the nudge nudge wink wink style of conversation, and the crude behavior quickly emerged alongside men drinking to excess. It’s not that I’m a prude. But when I’m in a group of men who call themselves Catholic gentlemen, I expect a little more edifying experience. My non-Catholic friends aren’t as consistently crass and crude as this group. I’ve been around other chapters, and it seems like in my experience this is a pretty common trait. I expect a little more than what seems like a high school level of maturity. These don’t seem to be people heavily invested in personal sanctity. Now, I’m by no means perfect, but I try to put my best foot forward around others.

Has anyone else here experienced this, and if so, what did you do about it? As I said, I really do believe in the overarching objectives and goals of the organization, and I actually really personally like these men I’m around for many reasons, but in the limited spare time I have I don’t see my time spent with them as time well spent because of the reasons I mentioned.

Any thoughts?

 

[Burt_Macklin]

Drinking at a work or church event it can be easy to mistakenly believe you’re at a social event among friends. If you’re not careful you may not realize you’re in an environment where there is an extra level of scrutiny on you. It’s easy to believe you’re among friends and follow the crowd atmosphere. It’s one of those environments that if I have to participate I hold a drink without drinking so I can participate while I keep my wits about me. If it’s just a one time event I just file it as a lapse in judgment from excess drink.

But to answer your question… I’ve never been at a Knights function or any church function where alcohol was involved.

 

[Exiled_Child]

Your description reminds me why I choose to have nothing whatsoever to do with fraternal organizations.

I like certain things about the Knights of Columbus, don’t get me wrong, but hanging out and getting drunk seems like part of the deal.

That’s just what “fraternal organization” means; Freemasons in the U.S. are the same way.

 

[Crusaderbear]

Your description reminds me why I choose to have nothing whatsoever to do with fraternal organizations.

I like certain things about the Knights of Columbus, don’t get me wrong, but hanging out and getting drunk seems like part of the deal.

Agree totally. Whenever alcohol is involved, things can turn south very quickly.

 

[Exiled_Child]

Agree totally. Whenever alcohol is involved, things can turn south very quickly.

There’s nothing wrong with alcohol, but not everyone drinks. Plus, some people can’t drink.

 

[pianistclare]

I don’t’ think it’s a given that any particular group of men ( much LESS the K of C) behave in this way.
I think most would be quite upset to hear this.
Perhaps you should join a different council, if yours if problematic.
Or, more helpfully…make an impassioned plea re: appearances and misconceptions at the next Council meeting.

Many times people don’t really see how things appear to others, much less within their own organization. That might be the most charitable thing to do.

 

[Bonnie]

And to top it off, the KC insurance is terrible. I didn’t learn about the difference between whole life & term until much too late. I can’t pull the money out because they keep more than 1/2. And that’s not 1/2 of the interest, but 1/2 of what we paid in.

 

[Beryllos]

Any thoughts?

Is there any chance you could improve the culture there? To accomplish that, you would probably have to work with some like-minded members, if you can find any, and you might make a few enemies. The problem is that it’s your church and your community, and it may not work to take the direct approach and tell them what you’ve just written here. Or perhaps it would.

Hey! Here’s an idea: Talk privately to the pastor about it, telling him more or less what you wrote. He might have some ideas on how to make it better. He might come and talk to the men. In any case, he should know (he needs to know) if a parish ministry like the Knights is not behaving appropriately.

 

[Faithful_Seeker]

Your description reminds me why I choose to have nothing whatsoever to do with fraternal organizations.

I like certain things about the Knights of Columbus, don’t get me wrong, but hanging out and getting drunk seems like part of the deal.

That’s just what “fraternal organization” means; Freemasons in the U.S. are the same way.

I’m not sure why, as a Catholic (as you’ve listed yourself), you’d be under the impression that a Knights of Columbus group could in any way, shape, or form, be compared to ‘Freemasons’ as you have stated here? In what way would you believe the 2 groups are alike? Please tell us since You sound as if you have personal knowledge of ‘freemasonry’’?
Have you been a Freemason yourself?

What part of Knights of Columbus, exactly has made you personally believe ‘hanging out & getting drunk is part of the deal’? Have you had direct experience as a Knight?

Do you know a Catholic cannot be a ‘Freemason’?

 

[Exiled_Child]

I’m not sure why, as a Catholic (as you’ve listed yourself), you’d be under the impression that a Knights of Columbus group could in any way, shape, or form, be compared to ‘Freemasons’ as you have stated here? In what way would you believe the 2 groups are alike? Please tell us since You sound as if you have personal knowledge of ‘freemasonry’’?
Have you been a Freemason yourself?

What part of Knights of Columbus, exactly has made you personally believe ‘hanging out & getting drunk is part of the deal’? Have you had direct experience as a Knight?

Do you know a Catholic cannot be a ‘Freemason’?

Actually, I’m probably one of the most outspoken anti-Masons on CAF. I’ve been virulently anti-Masonic since I was eleven or twelve years old, owing to my family background, which I don’t really feel like getting into. And yes, I have plenty of direct experience with both “Knights” and Freemasons, and I’ve certainly drank enough alcohol with both groups to destroy a small army. Perhaps somewhere in this world there exist fraternal organizations that don’t carry on like on frat boys, but I’ve yet to meet them. I take it your experience is different than mine?

 

[Faithful_Seeker]

Let me start by saying I am a 3rd Degree Knight of Columbus. For years, I labored under the impression that it was just a group of quasi-Catholic drunks and rowdies.

It turns out that to a large extent they do seem to be a bunch of rowdies and drunks. I was at a gathering last night of some Knights in my rural area, and shortly after a prayer in the passing of the hat to raise money for charity, the sex jokes, the nudge nudge wink wink style of conversation, and the crude behavior quickly emerged alongside men drinking to excess. It’s not that I’m a prude. But when I’m in a group of men who call themselves Catholic gentlemen, I expect a little more edifying experience. My non-Catholic friends aren’t as consistently crass and crude as this group.

I’ve been around other chapters and it seems like in my experience this is a pretty common trait.

Any thoughts?

My husband, who is a 3rd degree Knight of Columbus & used to be the Financial Secretary, said If you are speaking of a singular group, they would be referred to as a ‘council’ and not ‘chapters’ as you have stated. That a ‘chapter’ consist of a group of ‘counsels’.
So it would appear your making the statement that you are referring to ‘groups of counsels’, which would entail many more than your ‘rural’ gathering of Knights.

My husband says he has never encountered what you describe. And is surprised you’ve experienced what you claim.

I’m curious, Are you stating that large gatherings of Knights act the way you’ve described?

 

[Crusaderbear]

There’s nothing wrong with alcohol, but not everyone drinks. Plus, some people can’t drink.

Agreed, but it is often the key ingredient in problems. I don’t drink by choice, and I don’t demand others follow my lead, but I would rather stay away from gatherings where its a common ingredient. I stay away, no one else has to… I am pretty sure my absence isn’t even noted.

Of course I can’t recall any cases of " police called to break up knights of columbus brawl" reports either!

 

[coachdennis]

My husband, who is a 3rd degree Knight of Columbus & used to be the Financial Secretary, said If you are speaking of a singular group, they would be referred to as a ‘council’ and not ‘chapters’ as you have stated. That a ‘chapter’ consist of a group of ‘counsels’.
So it would appear your making the statement that you are referring to ‘groups of counsels’, which would entail many more than your ‘rural’ gathering of Knights.

My husband says he has never encountered what you describe. And is surprised you’ve experienced what you claim.

I’m curious, Are you stating that large gatherings of Knights act the way you’ve described?

I have no reason to doubt your husband’s experience but when the K of C addressed our parish council two years ago about having a local chapter established he himself admitted that the K of C is working hard to change its image among many as a drinking group who give out tootsie rolls once a year. So obviously they KNEW they had an image problem even if your husband doesn’t.

Growing up in the 190s and 1960s, many of my parents’ male friends belonged to the KofC solely because it got them out of the house, and was a good business networking group where they could drink in peace. Little ever mentioned about faith, prayer, etc.

 

[Exiled_Child]

Agreed, but it is often the key ingredient in problems. I don’t drink by choice, and I don’t demand others follow my lead, but I would rather stay away from gatherings where its a common ingredient. I stay away, no one else has to… I am pretty sure my absence isn’t even noted.

Knights of Columbus Orders and Masonic Lodges both necessarily reflect their locales, because their members are drawn from those communities. A rural area might be different than an urban one. I don’t know anything at all about the local K of C group here, even though I walk past their building all the time, but I’ve been invited to dinners at other K of Cs, and the atmosophere at those was completely different than from just hanging out socially with the very same group of people. I don’t know. I’m not trying to say anything bad about it, it’s just not for me. I’m not a joiner and, unfortunately, I generally have a very difficult time being around groups of people anyway. I only responded to this thread because what Dietrich said resonated pretty strongly with me. I think he’s a bit like me, or vice versa.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I had no idea that K of C members had an image of heavy drinkers.

 

[pianistclare]

I had no idea that K of C members had an image of heavy drinkers.

They don’t.
People label an entire group because of a few oddballs.

 

[Exiled_Child]

I had no idea that K of C members had an image of heavy drinkers.

My experiences were a number of years ago, and it could just be the group I knew.

The main one that I’ve stayed in touch with is still in K of C, and still carries on the way he used to, so I really don’t know.

These are people I grew up with, so maybe it kind of follows.

 

[Xantippe]

And to top it off, the KC insurance is terrible. I didn’t learn about the difference between whole life & term until much too late. I can’t pull the money out because they keep more than 1/2. And that’s not 1/2 of the interest, but 1/2 of what we paid in.

I was a bit disappointed when the second KoC insurance guy we worked with made a play for whole life. (The first one didn’t.) I suspect the second guy didn’t understand what a bad product it is for 99.99% of the population, but the guys back at headquarters do…

A fraternal organization probably shouldn’t be selling whole life.

 

[Dietrich]

I’m curious, Are you stating that large gatherings of Knights act the way you’ve described?

Sorry, you’re right - I meant council. It’s the third one I’ve encountered like this. The Knights are great, don’t get me wrong. Carl Anderson is a deep thinker and a holy man. The organization really is a force for good and I believe in it. Even the guys I’m talking about have done highly commendable things. But on a smaller, more intimate level, it seems like it changes and I don’t like it. The other thing I didn’t mention were the jokes about masturbation and utterances of blasphemy. I’m trying to get myself and my family to heaven and this doesn’t seem to be designed to accomplish that.

On another point, I am a joiner. I’m a highly active member of another fraternal organization (not the Masons - don’t worry) and, pound for pound, the non-religious group is far more chaste in speech, serious in comportment, and mature in general. These Knights, good in so many ways as I have mentioned, also seem to think you aren’t to be a gentleman 24 hours a day. It’s disheartening and I just can’t figure it out. I have spent my time being a boor and a partier- in college. I want manly, virtuous friendships and these guys are stuck in junior high.

As to the wider reputation of the KofC, my own mother (who is nearly 80) was vocally concerned when I joined. In her high school days in the 50’s her parents wouldn’t let she or her sister date Knights for every reason I mentioned (this was in a different state). They had a reputation even then. I told her it was different now but I’m not so sure. It’s such a weird dichotomy between the one-on-one experience versus the great good they do accomplish.

 

[Dietrich]

They don’t.
People label an entire group because of a few oddballs.

I’m happy to be wrong if I am, but this has been consistent with three councils in three different cities. Four if you count my mom’s experience in the 1950’s. The reputation is a real thing. It’s unfair to the good ones, but they need to clean their house if they want to overcome it.