Not-very-Catholic Answers

[UKcatholicGuy]

I came across this thread today in Ask an Apologist. Please take a moment to read the question and answer, as it is too much to post here.

This answer does not seem to square with traditional Catholic understanding of “invincible ignorance” or “innocent ignorance” as the apologist says. The man in question has most likely heard the Gospel-- he’s married to a Catholic. His wife has tried to talk to him about the faith, and he has obviously rejected it thus far.

I’m not judging the husband’s soul, but it seems he is objectively in a situation of grave danger. Everyone has the obligation to seek the Truth. We are held accountable not only on what we know, but also on what we should have known.

IMO, the more prudent and more correct answer to this questioner’s inquiry would be, “Pray for your husband. The Church teaches that baptism and faith are necessary for salvation. That is all we can say. Pray much for your husband.”

On what grounds does the apologist claim that this man is “innocently ignorant?” The traditional understanding of innocent ignorance is someone who has not heard the Gospel through no fault of their own.

Thoughts?

 

[YADA]

On what grounds does the apologist claim that this man is “innocently ignorant?” The traditional understanding of innocent ignorance is someone who has not heard the Gospel through no fault of their own.

Thoughts?

Just because the man has been to mass or is married to a catholic does not mean that the Gospel message has been effectively preached or heard …

Or to put it another way … perhaps the one who is preaching the gospel gets in the way of the True Gospel being heard …

We cannot judge this [not we as individual and not the Church - as organization] … only God can …

The mission of the Church [and we by virtue of our baptism] is to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ … Baptism for the remission of sins and belief in Christ as the Messiah …

The Church cannot teach any other way to salvation except through Christ - in accord with the deposit of faith -

but God is not so bound - God can bring any person to Salvation by whatever means - God alone determines who will enter into heaven …

 

[Vivat_Jesus1]

I’ve heard much worse non-Catholic “answers” from the Ask an Apologist forum…but hey, this is NeoCatholic Answers, what do you expect?

 

[Vivat_Jesus1]

but God is not so bound - God can bring any person to Salvation by whatever means - God alone determines who will enter into heaven …

Yes, and God HAS determined the means to salvation, Yada–baptism, faith in His Son and His teachings, and membership in the apostolic Roman Catholic Church, outside of which is NO SALVATION!

 

[Our_Refuge]

This is a great question. Seems to me that innocent ignorance “through no fault of their own” is too often used as an excuse even by apologists. This man seems to have no interest in finding the truth. It has been presented to him by his wife but he seems to be unwilling to search for the truth.
Were he to die today, I would say that his salvation is doubtful. Only God knows if he is invincibly ignorant but I think that the apologist took the modern day approach to the question, that everyone is innocently ignorant through no fault of their own. There always seems to be an “out”. No one is culpable. Christ’s words that the path to salvation is “narrow” seems to be ignored in today’s theology.

 

[EasterJoy]

First off, the wife already says that she prays for her husband, and Fr. Serpa by no means told her that is not necessary.

The man is not hostile to the faith nor to the prospect of baptism. He in fact is respectful of what baptism means, which is why he has not been baptized. He is supportive of his wife’s practice of te faith. Would he be better off accepting formal baptism, if he had to lie to do it? Of course not.

He is also not in the condition of resisting a change in his life. It isn’t that he rejects the Gospel. He doesn’t see it. What is he supposed to do? Perhaps he could rouse a bit more interest in it, but at some point the futility of this exercise makes that very difficult. It might even be counter-productive.

Also, Fr. Serpa did not say that the man would be fine. He said that he might be fine, that it is possible that this case falls into the category of innocent ignorance.

For instance, what if I tried to teach you mathematics, and you just could not get it, not the first thing? One might say you are culpable if you had no interest in learning because you couldn’t be bothered to make the effort, but on the other hand, if the lack of interest sprang from a more fundamental lack of aptitude, you also might not be culpable. Or if you were severely dyslexic…you could literally see the letters, but that doesn’t mean that any amount of trying on your part could allow you to make heads or tails of them. Are you to be blamed if you don’t keep hitting the books? Much less than others who have more talent and make less of it than they could.

I don’t think the wife is going to give up praying for her husband or witnessing the faith that she so desparately wants to be able to share with him. There is nothing else to do but to put trust in God to make up for what is missing, and to dismiss her anxiety over it. What else is she going to do?

 

[cam100]

I came across this thread today in Ask an Apologist. Please take a moment to read the question and answer, as it is too much to post here.

This answer does not seem to square with traditional Catholic understanding of “invincible ignorance” or “innocent ignorance” as the apologist says. The man in question has most likely heard the Gospel-- he’s married to a Catholic. His wife has tried to talk to him about the faith, and he has obviously rejected it thus far.

I’m not judging the husband’s soul, but it seems he is objectively in a situation of grave danger. Everyone has the obligation to seek the Truth. We are held accountable not only on what we know, but also on what we should have known.

IMO, the more prudent and more correct answer to this questioner’s inquiry would be, “Pray for your husband. The Church teaches that baptism and faith are necessary for salvation. That is all we can say. Pray much for your husband.”

On what grounds does the apologist claim that this man is “innocently ignorant?” The traditional understanding of innocent ignorance is someone who has not heard the Gospel through no fault of their own.

Thoughts?

The OP described her husband as such:

It is not that he does not believe, (hence I say he is an unbeliever, as opposed to a non believer) rather that he is yet to discover, what “it” is all about.

I would say this describes a person who could have “invincible ignorance”.

Now, you may find it hard to believe that a man married to a Catholic could be in such a state, and it is possible that the woman mistakenly views her husband as such because she loves him. But based on the OP’s description of the situation, I think the apologist’s answer is appropriate.

The Baltimore Catechism states:

Q. 509. Are all bound to belong to the Church?

A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it cannot be saved.

Although this man has heard some things about the Church, he may have not yet come to realization that it is the true Church.

 

[Our_Refuge]

At what point does one become culpable? Maybe we don’t have all of the facts but based on what was said by the wife the man doesn’t seemed to be 'concerned about the truth or about searching for it.

Dear Friends,

My dear husband is not a Christian, and tells me he has no real belief, that he will find out when he dies.

We will all find out when we die but shouldn’t we be finding out now?

It is not that he does not believe, (hence I say he is an unbeliever, as opposed to a non believer) rather that **he is yet to discover, **what “it” is all about.

The question is, what is he doing to ‘discover’ the truth? If he is doing nothing and expects God to reveal the truth to him, then he is not doing his part to seek the truth.

He is however fully supportive of my faith journey, although professes to have no interest in it for himself.

He has ‘no interest’ in a faith journey. How does 'through no fault of his own" still apply?

This is a question that has bothered me since I began my own journey into faith, as I would be heartbroken to find that heaven would hold no place for him, simply because his family failed to have him baptised!

Why blame his family?

I would be so grateful if some one could please answer the question of what would happen to him when he dies. I have asked my priest, and I am not sure that I fully understood his answer. I just hope that I have not chosen NOT to understand, if I do not like the answer.

Seems like her priest gave a different answer than Father Serpa.

This has kept me awake many nights, and I have come to the belief in my heart that Jesus would not turn against someone who was good, even if they have not had the wonderful benefit of our faith.

God gives everyone the grace to be saved. It is up to us to accept that grace that will lead us to the truth. At this point this man has rejected God’s grace. But his life is not yet over. He may still find the truth.
I

 

[mattwcu]

Reading the original post it appears “ignorance” may be the wrong term. “Apathy” and “indifference” are more proper to the situation.

Invincible ignorance is a real state of being however. I can think of several countries in the Arab world where the Bible is forbidden and people have no way of getting the true Gospel.

I cannot fathom someone going to Mass regularly and having a spouse consistently put the bug in the ear, and have that person be INVINCIBLY ignorant.

Pius X talks about VINCIBLE ignorance in his encyclical Acerbo Nimis:

"It is a common complaint, unfortunately too well founded, that there are large numbers of Christians in our own time who are entirely ignorant of those truths necessary for salvation. And when we mention Christians, We refer not only to the masses or to those in the lower walks of life – for these find some excuse for their ignorance in the fact that the demands of their harsh employers hardly leave them time to take care of themselves or of their dear ones – but We refer to those especially who do not lack culture or talents and, indeed, are possessed of abundant knowledge regarding things of the world but live rashly and imprudently with regard to religion. It is hard to find words to describe how profound is the darkness in which they are engulfed and, what is most deplorable of all, how tranquilly they repose there. They rarely give thought to God, the Supreme Author and Ruler of all things, or to the teachings of the faith of Christ. They know nothing of the Incarnation of the Word of God, nothing of the perfect restoration of the human race which He accomplished. Grace, the greatest of the helps for attaining eternal things, the Holy Sacrifice and the Sacraments by which we obtain grace, are entirely unknown to them. They have no conception of the malice and baseness of sin; hence they show no anxiety to avoid sin or to renounce it. And so they arrive at life’s end in such a condition that, lest all hope of salvation be lost, the priest is obliged to give in the last few moments of life a summary teaching of religion, a time which should be devoted to stimulating the soul to greater love for God. And even this as too often happens only when the dying man is not so sinfully ignorant as to look upon the ministration of the priest as useless, and then calmly faces the fearful passage to eternity without making his peace with God. And so Our Predecessor, Benedict XIV, had just cause to write: “We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.”

BUT, one qualifier. Fr. Serpa is a trustworthy priest. It is easy to tell that from his answers given on the radio broadcast. And so even though I’m not so sure about this answer, we should defer to him rather than our own judgment. He is a priest and his job is the care of souls.

Further, it would be seriously grave to judge the state of this man’s soul. Pray for him and his wife.

 

[Our_Refuge]

=mattwcu;3989019]Reading the original post it appears “ignorance” may be the wrong term. “Apathy” and “indifference” are more proper to the situation.

Invincible ignorance is a real state of being however. I can think of several countries in the Arab world where the Bible is forbidden and people have no way of getting the true Gospel.

I cannot fathom someone going to Mass regularly and having a spouse consistently put the bug in the ear, and have that person be INVINCIBLY ignorant.

Pius X talks about VINCIBLE ignorance in his encyclical Acerbo Nimis:

"It is a common complaint, unfortunately too well founded, that there are large numbers of Christians in our own time **who are entirely ignorant of those truths necessary for salvation. **And when we mention Christians, We refer not only to the masses or to those in the lower walks of life – for these find some excuse for their ignorance in the fact that the demands of their harsh employers hardly leave them time to take care of themselves or of their dear ones –

but We refer to those especially who do not lack culture or talents and, indeed, **are possessed of abundant knowledge regarding things of the world **

but live rashly and imprudently with regard to religion. It is hard to find words to describe how profound is the darkness in which they are engulfed and, what is most deplorable of all, how tranquilly they repose there.

**They rarely give thought to God, **

the Supreme Author and Ruler of all things, or to the teachings of the faith of Christ. They know nothing of the Incarnation of the Word of God, nothing of the perfect restoration of the human race which He accomplished. Grace, the greatest of the helps for attaining eternal things, the Holy Sacrifice and the Sacraments by which we obtain grace, are entirely unknown to them. They have no conception of the malice and baseness of sin; hence they show no anxiety to avoid sin or to renounce it. And so they arrive at life’s end in such a condition that, lest all hope of salvation be lost, the priest is obliged to give in the last few moments of life a summary teaching of religion, a time which should be devoted to stimulating the soul to greater love for God. And even this as too often happens only when the dying man is not so sinfully ignorant as to look upon the ministration of the priest as useless, and then calmly faces the fearful passage to eternity without making his peace with God. And so Our Predecessor, Benedict XIV, had just cause to write: "

We declare that a great number of those who are **condemned to eternal punishment **

suffer that everlasting calamity **because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith **which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect."

Pius X clearly establishes the fate of those who, because of their own fault, their own indifference, their own laziness do not seek the truth.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

The teaching of invincible ignorance has been distorted in such a way that it now include about everyone who does not firmly believe all that the Catholic Church teaches.

Not only those who are deserted on a desert island and have no access to the truth (the truly invincibly ignorance); not only those who have access to the truth but spend their time on “more important” things, such as sports (the vincibly ignorant); but now even those who have heard the truth but rejected it. The last group is included by claiming that they have not had the truth clearly presented to them. In fact, a few weeks ago I heard Karl Keating tell a fallen away Catholic that even fallen away Catholics are often invincibly ignorance - even though they have rejected the faith and left the Church. Where will this non-sense end?

No distinction is made between vincible and invincible ignorance, while those who have heard and rejected the truth are excused by claiming that they did not hear it clearly. And now, even the fallen away Catholics are now excused!

 

[UKcatholicGuy]

Reading the original post it appears “ignorance” may be the wrong term. “Apathy” and “indifference” are more proper to the situation.

Invincible ignorance is a real state of being however. I can think of several countries in the Arab world where the Bible is forbidden and people have no way of getting the true Gospel.

I cannot fathom someone going to Mass regularly and having a spouse consistently put the bug in the ear, and have that person be INVINCIBLY ignorant.

Pius X talks about VINCIBLE ignorance in his encyclical Acerbo Nimis:
"It is a common complaint, unfortunately too well founded, that there are large numbers of Christians in our own time who are entirely ignorant of those truths necessary for salvation. And when we mention Christians, We refer not only to the masses or to those in the lower walks of life – for these find some excuse for their ignorance in the fact that the demands of their harsh employers hardly leave them time to take care of themselves or of their dear ones – but We refer to those especially who do not lack culture or talents and, indeed, are possessed of abundant knowledge regarding things of the world but live rashly and imprudently with regard to religion. It is hard to find words to describe how profound is the darkness in which they are engulfed and, what is most deplorable of all, how tranquilly they repose there. They rarely give thought to God, the Supreme Author and Ruler of all things, or to the teachings of the faith of Christ. They know nothing of the Incarnation of the Word of God, nothing of the perfect restoration of the human race which He accomplished. Grace, the greatest of the helps for attaining eternal things, the Holy Sacrifice and the Sacraments by which we obtain grace, are entirely unknown to them. They have no conception of the malice and baseness of sin; hence they show no anxiety to avoid sin or to renounce it. And so they arrive at life’s end in such a condition that, lest all hope of salvation be lost, the priest is obliged to give in the last few moments of life a summary teaching of religion, a time which should be devoted to stimulating the soul to greater love for God. And even this as too often happens only when the dying man is not so sinfully ignorant as to look upon the ministration of the priest as useless, and then calmly faces the fearful passage to eternity without making his peace with God. And so Our Predecessor, Benedict XIV, had just cause to write: "We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect."BUT, one qualifier. Fr. Serpa is a trustworthy priest. It is easy to tell that from his answers given on the radio broadcast. And so even though I’m not so sure about this answer, we should defer to him rather than our own judgment. He is a priest and his job is the care of souls.

Further, it would be seriously grave to judge the state of this man’s soul. Pray for him and his wife.

But if a priest’s answer contradicts what a pope (and now a saint) has declared, we should follow the pope and the constant teaching of the Church.

 

[YADA]

Yes, and God HAS determined the means to salvation, Yada–baptism, faith in His Son and His teachings, and membership in the apostolic Roman Catholic Church, outside of which is NO SALVATION!

So you are the one who tells God who is saved and who is not …

The Church must teach that Jesus is the way to salvation … but God decides who is saved and who is damned …

The Church is fond of the Saints who it is sure are in Heaven … she makes no such determination of who is in H*** …

And I do not recall pure membership as being a salvific guarantee … Jesus said many call "Lord, Lord … " few are saved …

I believe in the one, holy catholic church … and place my trust in no other … I witness to the Truth - the truth that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. That “No one comes to the Father but through the Son”. I saek of the church founded by Christ upon Peter, the Rock …

All of that and still I would not presume to tell God that He may not save another because they failed to heed my witness … and neither would Mother Church …

As I said, the Church cannot teach another way than through the One entrusted to her … but God is not limited by the contraints of this world … God can save in whatever means and whomever God desires …

Jesus can save anyone - at any time - by any means … He is the Alpha and the Omega …

 

[pnewton]

I’ve heard much worse non-Catholic “answers” from the Ask an Apologist forum…but hey, this is NeoCatholic Answers, what do you expect?

Perhaps in the land who live in considered acceptable, but most people consider it ungrateful rudeness, especially when you resort to childish labeling.

If instead of exaggerating what Fr. Serpa said one would quote him properly, he said

It sounds like your husband has what the Church calls invincible ignorance–or innocent ignorance.

This means he bases his answer on a caveat that he is only going by the picture painted. Is this stuff that hard?

 

[myredeemerlives]

Where in scripture does it say a person can be saved if they are “ignorant” of the gospel?

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Where in scripture does it say a person can be saved if they are “ignorant” of the gospel?

Where in scripture does it say that only scripture can be a source of knowledge regarding the Faith?

 

[CTA1967]

Fr Vincent Serpa just answered another question about invincible ignorance. Does this sound better?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=257355

 

[PrayforMallory]

This answer, at least to me, is why people reject the Church.

Are they rejecting it because deep down, it just doesn’t click? If so, then grace has yet to burrow into that person’s psyche.

Are they rejecting it because they were brought up in an anti-Catholic environment, in which the Catholic Church was maligned from day one?

Are they rejecting because they know that by accepting Catholicism they will be bound to sacrifice themselves and obey? That is a whole different story.

It matters why this person has rejected the Gospel. Only God can know what his interior state is. We can just show him the way.

With that said, I question whether or not he is invincibly ignorant. In any case, one couldn’t know that until the end, so he is certainly in a grave state of danger, as are we all, outside of the Catholic Church.

To pronounce definitively that someone is invincibly ignorant is as wrong as to pronounce definitively that someone is damned. Some people will claim everyone is invincibly ignorant and some will claim everyone is damned. We know that many are damned and many are saved, so it’s best to leave those pronouncements to God, inform people of the total truth, and go about our business.

Besides, that person’s life is not over. We don’t know what God’s final plan could be for him.

 

[pnewton]

Fr. Serpa’s answer reflects what the CCC teaches. That is his job. Pass on the teaching of the Church. Maybe it applies in this case, maybe not. That is a decision left to God alone.

 

[mattwcu]

Fr. Serpa’s answer reflects what the CCC teaches. That is his job. Pass on the teaching of the Church. Maybe it applies in this case, maybe not. That is a decision left to God alone.

Hi pnewton, which answer do you mean? The first one or the second one?