Not your "normal" Traditional Catholic

[Jeanette_L]

It does get a little fast and furious on here. Then sometimes you are reading only a portion of a quote. Then sometimes someone is responding to something you said to someone else…or vice versa … gets confusing!

**I came on the traditional site to learn some things but sure didn’t know I was “landing on the beaches”! **

But you soon found out!

Same boat here, after having converted to the Church, I felt I was actually more traditional than a lot of Catholics I had known my whole life, so I came on the Traditional forum thinking I would find like minds and learn some things that would draw me even deeper into the faith.

Trying to hang on to my new faith, after having been exposed to some of the more extreme stuff, was more like what happened. I kept thinking somehow I had made a wrong turn and ended up back in the world of Protestantism again. I’ve learned more about some things than I care to at times, it really breaks your heart what some people will say about HMC and her leaders and the Holy Mass, without even flinching. The damage that can be done to the weaker in faith is unconscionable.

Hang in there though, balanced people are always, always needed!

 

[BSHoop96]

But you soon found out!

Same boat here, after having converted to the Church, I felt I was actually more traditional than a lot of Catholics I had known my whole life, so I came on the Traditional forum thinking I would find like minds and learn some things that would draw me even deeper into the faith.

Trying to hang on to my new faith, after having been exposed to some of the more extreme stuff, was more like what happened. I kept thinking somehow I had made a wrong turn and ended up back in the world of Protestantism again. I’ve learned more about some things than I care to at times, it really breaks your heart what some people will say about HMC and her leaders and the Holy Mass, without even flinching. The damage that can be done to the weaker in faith is unconscionable.

Hang in there though, balanced people are always, always needed!

Jeanette,

I know exactly what you mean. In all seriousness I have considered not even returning to a couple of these threads but it kind of draws you in doesn’t it? Please don’t let it ruin your new found happiness in the Church.

 

[PrayforMallory]

So at some Masses the faithful just sit there, silent?

I think for me, that would be a bigger culture shock than any other facet of the Mass – including the language (at least there I’d have a Missal).

I go to a solemn high dialogue Mass every Sunday, so we chant the altar boy’s responses.

There’s a lot of participation there.

If you are looking for a TLM, find one that has some participation. Learning the responses is a great way to start learning the prayers of the Mass.

As for Low Masses, I’ve never been to one, so I can’t attest as to what goes on there.

 

[Ghoti]

I go to a solemn high dialogue Mass every Sunday, so we chant the altar boy’s responses.

There’s a lot of participation there.

If you are looking for a TLM, find one that has some participation. Learning the responses is a great way to start learning the prayers of the Mass.

As for Low Masses, I’ve never been to one, so I can’t attest as to what goes on there.

That’s another thing: What is a “Low Mass” vs a “High Mass”? And how do I tell if the Mass has any participation?

In my archdiocese, this is what I have to choose from:

• St. Theresa’s Parish, Shrine of the Little Flower, Scarborough; no indication of Mass other than “Latin”
• Holy Family Church, Toronto; Oratory of St Philip Neri; “Sung Novus Ordo Latin” on Sunday, “Usus Antiquior” on weekdays (I assume the Sung NO is the same as the Masses I normally attend, only in Latin?)
• St Vincent de Paul Parish, Toronto; Oratory of St Philip Neri; “Usus Antiquior – Missa Cantata” on Sundays

So I don’t know which are “dialogue” and which are, for want of a better term, “monologue”.

Anyone familiar with these parishes? Or the Oratorians?

 

[PrayforMallory]

That’s another thing: What is a “Low Mass” vs a “High Mass”? And how do I tell if the Mass has any participation?

In my archdiocese, this is what I have to choose from:

• St. Theresa’s Parish, Shrine of the Little Flower, Scarborough; no indication of Mass other than “Latin”
• Holy Family Church, Toronto; Oratory of St Philip Neri; “Sung Novus Ordo Latin” on Sunday, “Usus Antiquior” on weekdays (I assume the Sung NO is the same as the Masses I normally attend, only in Latin?)
• St Vincent de Paul Parish, Toronto; Oratory of St Philip Neri; “Usus Antiquior – Missa Cantata” on Sundays

So I don’t know which are “dialogue” and which are, for want of a better term, “monologue”.

Anyone familiar with these parishes? Or the Oratorians?

As far as them being “dialogue” are concerned, most contemporary Tridentine Masses are dialogue Masses. There is just as much participation in the pews at the TLM I go to as there was at the Novus Ordo I went to. I’d wager the TLMs in your diocese are dialogue masses.

Hopefully I can help you out a bit.

The difference between the High Mass and the Low Mass is kind of analogous to the Sunday Novus Ordo and the daily Novus Ordo.

The low Mass is very stripped down compared to the High Mass, based on my understanding. There’s no music. It’s spoken and not chanted. In a High Mass, everything is chanted. In a Solemn High Mass, the most beautiful thing there is in my opinion, everything is chanted and at our Church there is sometimes an orchestra. Also, there are torches and all sorts of other visual gems.

The sung Novus Ordo is just like the regular Novus Ordo, except it’s going to be chanted and in Latin. I’ve actually never been to a Latin Novus Ordo, so I’m not familiar with it.

A Missa Cantata is a compromise between a Low Mass and a High Mass. It’s a sung Low Mass, from what I’ve read.

There is a video of one on youtube. It’s an SSPX parish, but all it shows is the Mass itself, which is exactly what you’ll be experiencing at the Missa Cantata. I’d watch it a few times. My first TLM was kind of off-putting, though I loved it from the beginning.

youtube.com/watch?v=xK8jPgJeGuA

I’d suggest the Missa Cantata, myself. If you go several times, you’ll feel right at home, trust me. My little one can say part of the Credo now, and she’s five! Usually they publish little missals in the Church but you can download the prayers for this week online. Of course, you don’t really need a missal. You can say your own private prayers that connect you to the Liturgy. You can also say the Gloria, Kyrie, and Credo in English in your head while the Latin is sung, in case you get lost or something.

In any case, let us know what you think.

 

[Dauphin]

That’s another thing: What is a “Low Mass” vs a “High Mass”? And how do I tell if the Mass has any participation?

In my archdiocese, this is what I have to choose from:

• St. Theresa’s Parish, Shrine of the Little Flower, Scarborough; no indication of Mass other than “Latin”
• Holy Family Church, Toronto; Oratory of St Philip Neri; “Sung Novus Ordo Latin” on Sunday, “Usus Antiquior” on weekdays (I assume the Sung NO is the same as the Masses I normally attend, only in Latin?)
• St Vincent de Paul Parish, Toronto; Oratory of St Philip Neri; “Usus Antiquior – Missa Cantata” on Sundays
  So I don’t know which are “dialogue” and which are, for want of a better term, “monologue”.

Anyone familiar with these parishes? Or the Oratorians?

A Low Mass is said without music or incense. For a High Mass, you need a deacon and subdeacon, and the rubrics are slightly different.

I attend St. Vincent de Paul often for the Missa Cantata - It’s just a sung low Mass with incense. It’s very well done. I’ve never attended Mass at the other Churches, though.

 

[otjm]

The text is actually exactly the same from both Missals. “vouchsafed” is just another way of saying “humbled himself”. Since the Mass is always in Latin, the translation really isn’t that important in the 1962 Missal.

Some days I jsut can’t let well enough alone.

I disagree that “vouchsafed” is just another way of saying that Christ “humbled” himself.

Vouch - to warrant, from Middle English vouchen; safe from sauf, Middle English for safe, is given the definition of “to grant or furnish in a gracious or condescending manner”. Maybe that means “humbled” to you, but I would take serious odds (and I am not generally a betting man) that the vast majority of people, upon heaing the term “vouchsafe” would not in any way, shape or form see any connection between that term and “humbled”. And if the vast majority of people don’t get it, then using a term that only the elite few would understand strikes me as not consistent with the fact that this is to be the prayer of the Church.

I do not suggest that we need to dumb down prayers to the lowest common denominator. But neither do we need to put prayers into a format that only the smallest part of the elete can comprehend.

 

[Dauphin]

Some days I jsut can’t let well enough alone.

I disagree that “vouchsafed” is just another way of saying that Christ “humbled” himself.

Vouch - to warrant, from Middle English vouchen; safe from sauf, Middle English for safe, is given the definition of “to grant or furnish in a gracious or condescending manner”. Maybe that means “humbled” to you, but I would take serious odds (and I am not generally a betting man) that the vast majority of people, upon heaing the term “vouchsafe” would not in any way, shape or form see any connection between that term and “humbled”. And if the vast majority of people don’t get it, then using a term that only the elite few would understand strikes me as not consistent with the fact that this is to be the prayer of the Church.

I do not suggest that we need to dumb down prayers to the lowest common denominator. But neither do we need to put prayers into a format that only the smallest part of the elete can comprehend.

I wasn’t aware I was in the elite.

 

[otjm]

And why wouldn’t they understand the vernacular translation of the TLM? Are Catholics stupid? Were Catholics who used a missal prior to Vatican II actually dumbfounded by the English translation?

Dumbfounded? I would hazard a guess (and I was there, ok?) that there were any number of words that the vast majority didn’t get. I am not, have not, and will not ever suggest that things need to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. But this is a prayer of the community; it is not a magic incantation which needs only to be pronounced to be efficacious. Edwardian English does not make a prayer more “prayer like”. Neither does using some word that simply is not used by any except the extreme few.

Were people dubfounded? No, but neither did they have a dictionary handy at Mass, and neither did they take the missal home and go over it line by line to decipher what it said. Other areas may have had higher useage of missals; in my area they were not widespread, but also not in the extreme minority either; fewer than half the people in any given Mass on Sunday would have one - I did, and I was aware that the majority of people didn’t.

 

[otjm]

A Low Mass is said without music or incense. For a High Mass, you need a deacon and subdeacon, and the rubrics are slightly different.

I attend St. Vincent de Paul often for the Missa Cantata - It’s just a sung low Mass with incense. It’s very well done. I’ve never attended Mass at the other Churches, though.

We had a high Mass every Sunday, and all without a deacon and subdeacon. A solemn High Mass has them participating, not a High Mass.

In our parish when I was young, the Sunday Masses were Low Masses; 2 candles were lit and the Mass was not sung or chanted.

The late morning Sunday Mass was a High Mass; the 6 tall candles were lit, and the priest chanted various parts of the Mass, and there was a choir to sing the Gloria, Sanctus, etc.

Incense was not used most of the time at a High Mass. However, incense was used at a Low Mass when it was a funeral.

 

[otjm]

I wasn’t aware I was in the elite.

I didn’t say you were; but neither would I deny that you might be. I happen to have a graduate degree, so I consider myself at least somewhat educated. I have always read a lot, and at one point in my life had a reasonably rich vocabulary (and have in the past been accused of talking over people’s heads).

I am fully aware of the spectrum that worship can cover, from simple to elaborate. I do not suggest that elaborate has no place; nor do I wish to say that only simple will suffice. I am no proponent of the translation we have now; but neither do I wish a return to Edwardian English. I simply do not accept that “thee” and “thou” and “shalt” are holier, more praiseworthy, or more indicative of our faith simply because they harken back about one and a half centuries. As I said, things don’t need to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. There is room between Edwardian English and the current ICEL translation and those who seem to wish to go back to what we had to deal with 40 to 50 years ago I think have other agendas.

 

[Dauphin]

We had a high Mass every Sunday, and all without a deacon and subdeacon. A solemn High Mass has them participating, not a High Mass. .

No, a High Mass (Also called Solemn Mass or Solemn High Mass) requires a deacon and subdeacon. What they called a “High Mass” was actually a Missa Cantata.

 

[otjm]

No, a High Mass (Also called Solemn Mass or Solemn High Mass) requires a deacon and subdeacon. What they called a “High Mass” was actually a Missa Cantata.

Suit yourself. I am just saying what we called it then; perhaps the names have changed; or perhaps it has to do with various areas.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

We had a high Mass every Sunday, and all without a deacon and subdeacon. A solemn High Mass has them participating, not a High Mass.

In our parish when I was young, the Sunday Masses were Low Masses; 2 candles were lit and the Mass was not sung or chanted.

The late morning Sunday Mass was a High Mass; the 6 tall candles were lit, and the priest chanted various parts of the Mass, and there was a choir to sing the Gloria, Sanctus, etc.

Incense was not used most of the time at a High Mass. However, incense was used at a Low Mass when it was a funeral.

You are bringing back memories for me here.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I simply do not accept that “thee” and “thou” and “shalt” are holier, more praiseworthy, or more indicative of our faith simply because they harken back about one and a half centuries…

I am in total agreement with you on this. That said, I still use them in the Our Father, Hail Mary, etc. simply because thats the way I learned them.
prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Dumbfounded? I would hazard a guess (and I was there, ok?) that there were any number of words that the vast majority didn’t get. I am not, have not, and will not ever suggest that things need to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. But this is a prayer of the community; it is not a magic incantation which needs only to be pronounced to be efficacious. Edwardian English does not make a prayer more “prayer like”. Neither does using some word that simply is not used by any except the extreme few.

Were people dubfounded? No, but neither did they have a dictionary handy at Mass, and neither did they take the missal home and go over it line by line to decipher what it said. Other areas may have had higher useage of missals; in my area they were not widespread, but also not in the extreme minority either; fewer than half the people in any given Mass on Sunday would have one - I did, and I was aware that the majority of people didn’t.

Hi otjm,

Well, I posted the links earlier because while there may be a word here or there like “vouchsafed’ which may be difficult for some people, overall I think it is a very good translation in that it is an attempt to bring out the full meaning of the Latin. Also, the writing itself is good, even poetic. It is the ICEL translation which seems to have had an agenda behind it, from the assumption that regular people can’t understand anything above regular, mundane, street level language, to the poor and truncated translations which the Wanderer newspaper talks about regularly.

I don’t think the “thees” and “thous” are any obstacle to understanding, even if people don’t use them in regular speech. And actually having a translation which is not just like regular speech is good because the Latin itself certainly is not every day speech.

I also believe that if people come across a word like “vouchsafed” which they aren’t familiar with (and maybe they can get some understanding because of the context), they certainly can ask someone or look it up in a dictionary at home. Sure, many people won’t, but I don’t think that’s a particularly good reason to alter a translation.

Nevertheless, I won’t quibble over a word here or there. If a translation changed “vouchsafed” to a more understandable word which was just as good, fine. I just don’t think there needs to be an entirely new translation for the TLM. It is quite good as it stands.

 

[preV2tradcath]

A Low Mass is said without music or incense. For a High Mass, you need a deacon and subdeacon, and the rubrics are slightly different.

I attend St. Vincent de Paul often for the Missa Cantata - It’s just a sung low Mass with incense. It’s very well done. I’ve never attended Mass at the other Churches, though.

Small world. Philip Fournier, the organist at St. Vincent de Paul in Toronto, used to be the organist at the Cathedral where I attend the EF. The year before he left, his schola at the cathedral sang at our Mass from the 1st Sunday of Lent until Pentecost. His other choirs sang at the OF and diocesan celebrations.

 

[otjm]

Hi otjm,

Well, I posted the links earlier because while there may be a word here or there like “vouchsafed’ which may be difficult for some people, overall I think it is a very good translation in that it is an attempt to bring out the full meaning of the Latin. Also, the writing itself is good, even poetic. It is the ICEL translation which seems to have had an agenda behind it, from the assumption that regular people can’t understand anything above regular, mundane, street level language, to the poor and truncated translations which the Wanderer newspaper talks about regularly.

I don’t think the “thees” and “thous” are any obstacle to understanding, even if people don’t use them in regular speech. And actually having a translation which is not just like regular speech is good because the Latin itself certainly is not every day speech.

I also believe that if people come across a word like “vouchsafed” which they aren’t familiar with (and maybe they can get some understanding because of the context), they certainly can ask someone or look it up in a dictionary at home. Sure, many people won’t, but I don’t think that’s a particularly good reason to alter a translation.

Nevertheless, I won’t quibble over a word here or there. If a translation changed “vouchsafed” to a more understandable word which was just as good, fine. I just don’t think there needs to be an entirely new translation for the TLM. It is quite good as it stands.

Last point first: the ICEL is not dealing with a translation of the TLM; it is dealing with a translation of the OF. If people who prefer the TLM, or to use the pope’s name for it, the EF, wish to have archaic English, that is perfectly fine. I suspect that they would arrive at a fairly high consensus of agreement concerning the translation, but that is not what we are generally discussing herein; primarily we have been discussing the OF.

I do not stand for the postion that something poetic is bad, banal, to be avoided, improper, or otherwise to be denigrated. I have said and I maintain that the translation we have now was dumbed down and is certaily open to the interpretation that it was driven by an agenda. I may not be as excited or preturbed as some are about that, but I also do not disagree with the analysis.

Your comment about people looking things up, I think, portrays a certain degree of naivety as to how most people act when confronted with a word they don’t understand. Most generally, they try to “fit it in” within the context. And that means in a word, they slide over it with little comprehension.

Point: one of the loud and long complaints is that the current ICEL translation misses a certain element of doctrinal emphasis (to choose a term), and the prayers in the OF in general are castigated as being somewhere between poor doctrinally and heretical; I find that position to be interesting when juxtaposed with the fact that one of the most brilliant theologians alive today says that Mass on a regular basis; and I choose the word “interesting” advisedly. I do not oppose a re-writing of some of the prayers of the OF, but I would hope that it is not being done by the effete intelligencia who appear to look down on the vast majority of us peons as… well, you get the jist from the rest of my comments.

And I didn’t say that “thee” and 'thou" and “shalt” would interfer with understanding. Re-read my post; I find it no holier to say “you” than to say “thou” and I find those who feel that I must use Edwardian English to address Christ or the Father in such language to be doing the equivalent of counting angels on the heads of pins. In short, Christ taught us to call the Father “Abba”; if you have had a child, you would probably be struck by the similarity to the word “papa”; in particular if you had any exposure to other languages and how often that term or something extremely close phonetically is used by little children.

I am well aware of the issues of immanent vs. transcendent, and the general minimization of the transcendent in the OF. But it is not either/or, it is both/and. we don’t have to go from one extreme to another; there is a middle ground. Poetic is fine. So is understandable English, and vouchsafed is not one of those words.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Last point first: the ICEL is not dealing with a translation of the TLM; it is dealing with a translation of the OF. If people who prefer the TLM, or to use the pope’s name for it, the EF, wish to have archaic English, that is perfectly fine. I suspect that they would arrive at a fairly high consensus of agreement concerning the translation, but that is not what we are generally discussing herein; primarily we have been discussing the OF.

I do not stand for the postion that something poetic is bad, banal, to be avoided, improper, or otherwise to be denigrated. I have said and I maintain that the translation we have now was dumbed down and is certaily open to the interpretation that it was driven by an agenda. I may not be as excited or preturbed as some are about that, but I also do not disagree with the analysis.

Your comment about people looking things up, I think, portrays a certain degree of naivety as to how most people act when confronted with a word they don’t understand. Most generally, they try to “fit it in” within the context. And that means in a word, they slide over it with little comprehension.

Point: one of the loud and long complaints is that the current ICEL translation misses a certain element of doctrinal emphasis (to choose a term), and the prayers in the OF in general are castigated as being somewhere between poor doctrinally and heretical; I find that position to be interesting when juxtaposed with the fact that one of the most brilliant theologians alive today says that Mass on a regular basis; and I choose the word “interesting” advisedly. I do not oppose a re-writing of some of the prayers of the OF, but I would hope that it is not being done by the effete intelligencia who appear to look down on the vast majority of us peons as… well, you get the jist from the rest of my comments.

And I didn’t say that “thee” and 'thou" and “shalt” would interfer with understanding. Re-read my post; I find it no holier to say “you” than to say “thou” and I find those who feel that I must use Edwardian English to address Christ or the Father in such language to be doing the equivalent of counting angels on the heads of pins. In short, Christ taught us to call the Father “Abba”; if you have had a child, you would probably be struck by the similarity to the word “papa”; in particular if you had any exposure to other languages and how often that term or something extremely close phonetically is used by little children.

I am well aware of the issues of immanent vs. transcendent, and the general minimization of the transcendent in the OF. But it is not either/or, it is both/and. we don’t have to go from one extreme to another; there is a middle ground. Poetic is fine. So is understandable English, and vouchsafed is not one of those words.

Hi otjm,

I think the reason I started discussing the TLM translation is the word “vouchsafed” which sparked this discussion is from the TLM translation. However I would agree that with the TLM translation it is all a pretty moot point in that the people who attend the TLM are pretty happy with the English translation and have no desire to see it changed. I also agree with you that most people will not bother looking up a word; however, if it is an important word, especially if it is a theological or doctrinal word, then accuracy trumps trying to have a word which is immediately understood by everyone.

So I agree that it is far more pertinent to discuss the NO translation as that is where the revision is taking place (and also the battle). Of course I would like to see the NO celebrated in Latin just as the TLM is as I think putting the Mass entirely in the vernacular predictably opened up a battle over the liturgy from those who think the translation needs to be simple and understandable (along with other agendas) to those who want to emphasize a full, poetic translation.

Of course even with the NO I lean toward a full, accurate, poetic translation, which I think by no means is easy to produce (particularly the poetic part). And thus if there are some words in there which are more accurate, but perhaps not as immediately understandable to everyone, I would want the more accurate word. And ironically, it seems as if the translation is even more critical in the NO than in the TLM since with the TLM you have the Latin right there and thus the opportunity (with a bit of study) to at least get an idea if a translation is ok. With the NO in the vernacular you really don’t have that opportunity (unless you get a Latin Missal or do research online). Thus the translation for the NO is quite important as it is all that most people will be exposed to.

Regarding the actual prayers of the NO themselves, I am in full agreement with studies like the Ottaviani Intervention which maintain that the prayers are not as doctrinally strong as the TLM (though I do not say they are heretical, and neither does that study). And so even if you get a good solid translation, your translation can only be as good as the original text. And yes, Pope Benedict regularly celebrates the NO. However, I don’t know what else he is supposed to do since he is the Pope and it is the official liturgy of the Church. Thus just because he celebrates it regularly I don’t know that that means he considers the reform itself to have been all that wonderful (and he’s said at least a couple of comments critiquing the reform when he was a Cardinal).

God bless.

 

[LilyM]

I also agree with you that most people will not bother looking up a word; however, if it is an important word, especially if it is a theological or doctrinal word, then accuracy trumps trying to have a word which is immediately understood by everyone.

But the problem isn’t just that most people won’t look it up. They problem is that they will either just assume the meaning (as I did, wrongly as it turns out) from the context, or worse still assume the word doesn’t really mean anything significant because no-one bothered to translate it in a way which was readily comprehensible. There’s no flag there pointing out that the particular word has any significance.

Whereas if you find a word that is precise AND clearly expresses the concept so that it doesn’t NEED either to be looked up or to have its meaning guessed at (which is what I feel ‘humbled’ achieves as opposed to ‘vouchsafed’) AND its significance won’t be overlooked or ignored, then everyone wins.