Nothing....Absolutely Nothing

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Bilodeau
Actually, something can come from nothing, as long as the corresponding antisomething also comes from nothing. In this way, nothing is conserved.​

masterjedi747 said:
^…You want to run that by me one more time? It doesn’t work like that. :confused:
So what caused the something and anti-something to come into existence in the first place? Something had to do it. The nothing, the non-existence itself, cannot bring something into existence. So the very fact that something exists now tells us that something has had to exist for all eternity in order to bring the current something into existence.Thus, nothing never has existed, and never will…and really, it never can.

I can’t believe I just said that… 😛 Whew!

I think he may have had in mind the creation of a particle / anti-particle pair. --identical subatomic particles, one of which is regular matter, the other antimatter. If they meet, they annihilate each other while creating energy. The opposite reaction would be the creation of a particle / anti-particle pair from empty space. Maybe a physicist on the board could explain that better.
 
Most substance becomes structure when you look up close.

A tree from a distance looks kind of solid. Up close it is mostly air.

A diamond viewed with naked eye looks solid, but viewed close up it is atoms with spaces between them.

Atoms are clouds of very sparsely populated electrons with a tiny nucleus, so they are mostly space. Now we believe that the subatomic particles themselves are composed of many things, meaning they aren’t even solid “stuff” but they are smaller “stuff” with structure. The various physical properties of electomagnetism, gravity, molecular foreces, and all those keep all this structure together.

A table is mostly space, being more structure than matter when viewed close up. It only feels solid because statistically speaking, the atoms in your hand don’t “pass between” the atoms of the table so really when you “touch” the table you really have a lot of little thingies swarming around, repelling each other and that’s the “pressure” you feel – in a way you might even say you never touched the table. In another way you probably mixed in with it just a tiny bit when you touched it.

If you could do at table size what is done on small pieces of silicon (e.g. tunnel diodes) then you could pass your hand through the table. Your hand and the table are probably like 99.99999% empty space, at least, but I just made that number up so quote me at your own risk. 😉

Alan
 
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batteddy:
Space comes from the accidents of distance and position and the like. It is not a substance in and of itself. It is like color, size, etc…it only exists as the abstract product of the accidental relationships between various substances.
A substance is something that exists in itself, and not in another. (Cars, boxes, etc…)
An accident is something that exists in another, and not in itself. (Colors, size, etc…)

So you’re saying that space is something that exists only in other objects (atoms, galaxies, the universe)…but not in itself. Interesting. Does anyone/everyone else here agree with that?
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otm:
No, one does not “hear” silence. “hearing” is a reaction to a sound - the brain ultimately receives signals from the nerves in the ear, which receive physicl stimuli caused by sound waves. So “hearing” means a physical response to something. No “something” (sound waves), no hearing.

I once took my twins to Bend, Oregon, and we walked into a cave, which went quite deep. Eventually we got to a spot where we turned out the light we had; I have never had such an experience. There was no light whatsoever. I did not “see” blackness. I did not see, period.
That makes sense. The distinction between “not seeing” and “seeing nothing”. Just because you cannot see anything…that doesn’t mean you can see nothing. Alright. I got it. 🙂
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otm:
Not as those terms are defined. We may have a concept of a lack of something, but a lack of something menas one has nothing; as the term is understood, it is not a thing but a lack of a thing.
Wait, wait, wait…is nothing a lack of something or a lack of anything and everything?
Just because you lack something (light or sound, for example), that doesn’t mean you have nothing…but rather that you simply don’t have that one particular thing. But you still have something else in its place, right? Because you can’t have nothing…right? :confused:
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otm:
We use the word “space” as a relational term. It has meaning, only in terms of relationship on one thing to another. To talk about space without definging it by relationship to something is not possible meaningfully; the term becomes meaningless.
Now I’m getting confused again. I thought “space” (or “space-time”) was something real…it can be curved or warped by gravity…and you can’t curve nothing, or something that doesn’t exist.
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otm:
Have you ever seen an inch? An inch is not part of a ruler; it is defined as a set and accepted relationship between two points.
RIght…an inch is a defined length used for measurement. But “space” isn’t something that you measure other things with…it’s more like the thing that you measure with other instruments.
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JimG:
I think he may have had in mind the creation of a particle / anti-particle pair. -The opposite reaction would be the creation of a particle / anti-particle pair from empty space.
Right. But the creation of a particle/anti-particle pair would still have to come from something…whether it is spontaneously generated by some type of zero-point energy, or whether God brings it directly into existence…it still came from something else. Which means that it did not arise from nothing, but rather from something, whatever that something may be.
 
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mhansen:
Then what’s on the other side of the “space boundary?” Isn’t that kinda like “walking off the edge of the earth?”

Seriously though, I know space is still expanding, but I was always curious as to what is on the other side of that line where space “ends”…

Mike
I’m going to try and copy the relevant bits from Fr. Stanley Jaki’s “Why The Question: Is There A God?” that hopefully will answer your question:

“If the number of stars is infinite and their distribution is fairly uniform in space, then from any point in space a ray of starlight would reach the eye. Therefore at at any of its points the sky would shine as the surface of the sun and all the time. Paradoxically, this is not the case. The sun occupies but a small area of the day sky and the total amount of starlight visible at night is a small fraction of the light of the full moon. Dark indeed is the sky at night and seems to bespeak cosmic finitude.”

The point here is that if the universe is infinite, than the infinite light from infinite numbers of stars should be lighting our nights and days. Problem being, they don’t! Wilhelm Olbers (a nineteeth-century German physician-astronomer) offered the partial absorption of light through an “ether” as a solution, however, this proved false thermodynamically: and so we’re stuck with the paradox of dark nights.

Dr. Jaki goes into a very brief history of how various physicists such as Lord Kelvin tried to cope with this paradox—in Lord Kelvin’s argument, “our Milky Way was taken to be the principal part of the visible stellar realm. Therefore, so went the argument, negligible was all that starlight that reached us from even an astonishingly large cosmic space beyond the MIlky Way.” However, it’s not possible to escape the “paradox posed by infinite spaces stretching beyond the Milky Way, full of other light-emitting stars or galaxies.” In short, it could not be denied that at least a minute portion of that light had to reach earth: the multiplication of any small quantity (however negligible) with infinity, could only yield an infinite quantity. Therefore, we ought to have no dark nights if the universe were infinite: we do, and so it can be shown that the universe is NOT infinite. Nor could the infinite be comprehended by physicists anyway: the physicist must measure in order to reach physical truth, but there is no way to measure an infinite extension.

However, as you point out, the idea of a finite universe comes with the idea of boundaries; that is, that one could sit at the “edge” of such a universe. This idea, though, only justifies an infinite universe in an abstract way through finite lenses, as though we can truly comprehend infinity. We can’t. One can’t realize, for example, an actual infinite quantity: any quantity will be a number, which can only be finite because any number is finite. One solution is to represent space as a kind of “saddle”, as others here have mentioned: it has a special curvature and is very thin at times. This means that the universe must be a very specific thing, but anytime one is faced with a very specific thing, you’re stuck with the metaphysical question: why this very specific thing and not something else?

Here’s Fr. Jaki: “Therefore to eliminate the absurd possibility that one might reach the edge of the universe and, sitting down there, swing one’s feet beyond it, that finite quantity of matter had to be cast into a four-dimensional manifold, in which no straight line is permissible. There all permissible lines of motion resemble a curve. Therefore no body can move to the edge of the material universe, and much less beyond it…” “It is clear that such a cosmological model is something very specific. Therefore it poses, as does any other specific thing, the question: why such and not something else?”

Hope that helps.
 
What is greater than God, More evil than the devil, The poor have it, The rich need it, And if you eat it, you’ll die?
 
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Subrosa:
What is greater than God, More evil than the devil, The poor have it, The rich need it, And if you eat it, you’ll die?
That would be the question, I believe. 😉
 
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