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STT
Guest
No, my question is not how? My question is whether the process of nothing to something is possible or not? Could we please we focus on the process? Possible or impossible?
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catholicray
Guest
Anyone else notice this gentlemen can not understand the answers? You’ve already been given the answer thoroughly. I see no need to give you the answer in a different form. If you can’t comprehend it you simply can’t comprehend it.No, my question is not how? My question is whether the process of nothing to something is possible or not? Could we please we focus on the process? Possible or impossible?
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STT
Guest
I understand you well. Could we agree that in temporal framework there was a point that only God existed and then God created the universe so there is God and the universe afterward? I think that God has the power to create. Of course the power is due to existence of God, what you are trying to say in B. What happened is A. You are mixing two things.Anyone else notice this gentlemen can not understand the answers? You’ve already been given the answer thoroughly. I see no need to give you the answer in a different form. If you can’t comprehend it you simply can’t comprehend it.
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STT
Guest
What if he is in vacuum?Nope. There is still “air” in your hand. Or some other molecules and atoms.
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catholicray
Guest
No sir certainly not.I understand you well. Could we agree that in temporal framework there was a point that only God existed and then God created the universe so there is God and the universe afterward? I think that God has the power to create. Of course the power is due to existence of God, what you are trying to say in B. What happened is A. You are mixing two things.
What I would be saying is that God in my hypothetical (B) scenario is understood as energy existing eternally or rather something existing eternally. In our (B) scenario there is no such thing as absolute nothing and there never has been. Our reality is something that comes from something rather than something that came from nothing.
So God did not act upon nothing and spawn our reality from it in (B) rather our reality is of something (God) in which case reality is something given from the Apex of something. It is that part of an eternal something freely given to us in a form chosen for us to receive it. Reality then is God though not God in totality. Or I suppose I should say reality as we perceive it is not God in totality but rather a part of God. We do not have the tools to perceive reality in it’s totality. If we did we would be staring at God. (B) rejects the idea of absolute nothing and the idea that God spawned something from absolute nothing.
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chercheur
Guest
Depends what you mean by “nothing”. You can’t remove God from the equation entirely because in Catholicism there is no existence or capacity exist independent of God. “Nothing to something” by itself isn’t something Catholics are interested in examining.God created something out of nothing. I am asking whether what God did is logically possible or not. For that you just need to put God aside from equation to realize the process of creation, nothing then something.
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tafan2
Guest
Ok, I thought the word logically might have had more significance. My bad.
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Montrose
Guest
Can someone clarify the topic for me? Are we discussing whether it is possible or impossible for God to create something out of nothing or are we discussing that without God is it possible or impossible to create something out of nothing.
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Freddy
Guest
Who said we started with nothing? I missed that bit.Nothing to something is either logically possible or it is logically impossible. There is no need for God in the first case since the process of nothing to something is possible. Introducing God in the second case cannot help to have something out of nothing since the process is logically impossible. Therefore, there is no need for God to have something out of nothing.
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catholicray
Guest
The OP was pushing in the direction that because God can create something from nothing then something from nothing is possible. If something from nothing is possible is it necessary to have to say God did it? It’s kind of confusing I know but basically he was suggesting in his conclusion that if something can come from nothing by any means then something from nothing is not a good enough reason to suggest that God has anything to do with it. Again still confusing but it’s in there lol.Can someone clarify the topic for me? Are we discussing whether it is possible or impossible for God to create something out of nothing or are we discussing that without God is it possible or impossible to create something out of nothing.
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GodIsPerfection
Guest
Nothing to something is thermodynamically impossible.Nothing to something is either logically possible or it is logically impossible.
It is theologically possible.God is the creative impetus that sets thermodynamics on its head.
DEFINITION OF ENTROPY:
- Physics
- lack of order or predictability; gradual decline into disorder.
In the known universe, systems of energy and matter are constantly evolving toward lower energy and greater disorder.
Balls roll downhill, stone walls collapse, iron rusts, molecules are oxidized, bodies age, flesh rots. Biblically, this phenomenon is characterized by the fall of the world that Adam and Eve caused.
Things DO NOT arise out of nothing and become something. That would be a spontaneous decrease of entropy. Our known universe is an isolated system where that is impossible.
For example, parts of computers do not spontaneously assemble themselves into working computers. Balls do not roll uphill. Messy rooms do not tidy themselves. Tools must be cleaned and stored after use, or they become lost. People get old, sicken, and die.
Philosophically, anything can be argued, but in our known universe, entropy rules.
I am a Catholic, speaking to the OP purely rationally, and as a scientist. God is omnipotent (all powerful) and sovereign. With God, all things are possible.
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meltzerboy2
Guest
How are you defining nothing? Do you mean nothing at all physically, temporally, mentally, spiritually? Because if you mean ABSOLUTELY nothing, then there is an immediate contradiction to the believer because G-d ALWAYS existed so there was NEVER nothing in the universe to begin with.
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Montrose
Guest
Modern Catholic Dictionary:Omnipotence is undefined. And even God cannot create a square circle or a married bachelor, or a two sided Mobius strip.
OMNIPOTENCE. The almighty power of God. He can do whatever does not deny his nature or that is not self-contradictory. Since God is infinite in being, he must also be infinite in power. (Etym. Latin omnis , all + potentia , power: omnipotens , all-powerful.)
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GodIsPerfection
Guest
2 Timothy 2: 23 King James Version
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.
22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.
22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
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Richca
Guest
The process of creation, from nothing to something, without God is impossible. As the early greek philosophers rightly said “from nothing comes nothing,” although they were considering only particular or second causes, not the universal and first cause of all.Could we please focus on my argument for the sake of discussion? I have another argument against God too. Nothing to something is possible or not? God didn’t create something from something. God created something out of nothing. I am asking whether what God did is logically possible or not. For that you just need to put God aside from equation to realize the process of creation, nothing then something.
If we consider what God is according to the catholic faith, then it is not against reason that God created out of nothing. God is infinite with infinite power, how is it against reason that He can create out of nothing? Humans who are finite create many things out of pre-existing materials. God who is an infinite distance from humans creates out of nothing. And God didn’t create the universe from a part of himself as He is an absolutely simple being without parts and who cannot be divided.
It seems to me from your various responses that you are asking whether God can create out of nothing and then possibly trying to use various logical equations that He can’t. Forget the logical equations for a moment and use simple reason. If God is considered to be who He is according to the catholic faith, then again, how is it against reason that He could not create out of nothing? I do not find it against my reason at least that God created the universe out of nothing. In fact, this is the only logical conclusion we can come too once we consider who God is and his nature and the infinite distance between God and creation.
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_root
Guest
This is how I try to rationalize it.
If the question demands a theistic explanation then I see it as:
Not that God created something out of nothing.
God did not have to create out of anything.
God just created.
If we want to use the word “Nothing” then:
Nothing to Something = Impossible
God = Something
God to Something = Possible(true)
Once you eliminate the impossible,
whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
Arthur Conan Doyle-
If the question demands a theistic explanation then I see it as:
Not that God created something out of nothing.
God did not have to create out of anything.
God just created.
If we want to use the word “Nothing” then:
Nothing to Something = Impossible
God = Something
God to Something = Possible(true)
Once you eliminate the impossible,
whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
Arthur Conan Doyle-
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Gorgias
Guest
What if it’s only logically possible through the action of God?Nothing to something is either logically possible or it is logically impossible. There is no need for God in the first case since the process of nothing to something is possible.
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Gorgias
Guest
An example of there being nothing made ex nihilo except God’s creation? I guess that the real question might be “do you have an example of something made ex nihilo by someone / something other than God?”Can you provide an example?
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STT
Guest
What principle God defy in order to bring something out of nothing? What if I show that the process of nothing to something is logically possible without any need to defying any principle?No sir certainly not.
What I would be saying is that God in my hypothetical (B) scenario is understood as energy existing eternally or rather something existing eternally. In our (B) scenario there is no such thing as absolute nothing and there never has been. Our reality is something that comes from something rather than something that came from nothing.
So God did not act upon nothing and spawn our reality from it in (B) rather our reality is of something (God) in which case reality is something given from the Apex of something. It is that part of an eternal something freely given to us in a form chosen for us to receive it. Reality then is God though not God in totality. Or I suppose I should say reality as we perceive it is not God in totality but rather a part of God. We do not have the tools to perceive reality in it’s totality. If we did we would be staring at God. (B) rejects the idea of absolute nothing and the idea that God spawned something from absolute nothing.
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STT
Guest
Let’s ask this question that what is the principle that God has to defy in order to bring something out of nothing?Can someone clarify the topic for me? Are we discussing whether it is possible or impossible for God to create something out of nothing or are we discussing that without God is it possible or impossible to create something out of nothing.
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