Notion of God evolves in the Old Testament?

[Nimeniton]

“…There was an evolution in the Old Testament. There are some awful things there. It developed the notion of God, was purified as it went through the Old Testament.” Cardinal George Pell of Sydney, Australia. Quote is from a YouTube video regarding a question and answer session between Richard Dawkins and the Cardinal.

The concept that he notion of God was purified/evolved throughout the Old Testament is new to me. Is this just the Cardinal’s personal opinion? Is it dogma or at least taught by the Magisterium?

Could somebody give an example of the notion of God evolving in the Old Testament?

 

[meltzerboy]

“…There was an evolution in the Old Testament. There are some awful things there. It developed the notion of God, was purified as it went through the Old Testament.” Cardinal George Pell of Sydney, Australia. Quote is from a YouTube video regarding a question and answer session between Richard Dawkins and the Cardinal.

The concept that he notion of God was purified/evolved throughout the Old Testament is new to me. Is this just the Cardinal’s personal opinion? Is it dogma or at least taught by the Magisterium?

Could somebody give an example of the notion of God evolving in the Old Testament?

G-d does not evolve, at least according to Jewish teaching and, I believe, the Catholic Church as well. However, Cardinal Pell may have been referring to the development of the people’s understanding of G-d rather than G-d Himself.

 

[JerryZ]

G-d does not evolve, at least according to Jewish teaching and, I believe, the Catholic Church as well. However, Cardinal Pell may have been referring to the development of the people’s understanding of G-d rather than G-d Himself.

My thoughts as well revelation is done in stages according to our preparation to understand and accept Him.

 

[patrick457]

G-d does not evolve, at least according to Jewish teaching and, I believe, the Catholic Church as well. However, Cardinal Pell may have been referring to the development of the people’s understanding of G-d rather than G-d Himself.

What he said.

 

[MaeganFlinchum1]

G-d does not evolve, at least according to Jewish teaching and, I believe, the Catholic Church as well. However, Cardinal Pell may have been referring to the development of the people’s understanding of G-d rather than G-d Himself.

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

“…There was an evolution in the Old Testament. There are some awful things there. It developed the notion of God, was purified as it went through the Old Testament.” Cardinal George Pell of Sydney, Australia. Quote is from a YouTube video regarding a question and answer session between Richard Dawkins and the Cardinal.

The concept that he notion of God was purified/evolved throughout the Old Testament is new to me. Is this just the Cardinal’s personal opinion? Is it dogma or at least taught by the Magisterium?

Could somebody give an example of the notion of God evolving in the Old Testament?

I can give an example of the notion of God evolving in the Old Testament. Animal sacrifce. At the beginning of the Jewish nation God requires animal sacrifice and as you progress scripture begins to teach that God prefers righteousness to animal sacrifice.

You must understand that scripture was put together through tribal/traditional stories handed down orally. It was supposedly compiled in scripture around the time of exile of the Jewish people; in so that the inconsistancy of the notion of God can merely be contributed to an exaggerated story or some sort of fictional aspect that the story acquired while being handed down orally. For example, the law of Moses is no other than a cultural belief system shared by a peoples and indeed is not from the mouth of God.

 

[meltzerboy]

I can give an example of the notion of God evolving in the Old Testament. Animal sacrifce. At the beginning of the Jewish nation God requires animal sacrifice and as you progress scripture begins to teach that God prefers righteousness to animal sacrifice.

You must understand that scripture was put together through tribal/traditional stories handed down orally. It was supposedly compiled in scripture around the time of exile of the Jewish people; in so that the inconsistancy of the notion of God can merely be contributed to an exaggerated story or some sort of fictional aspect that the story acquired while being handed down orally. For example, the law of Moses is no other than a cultural belief system shared by a peoples and indeed is not from the mouth of God.

This is not Jewish belief. While animal sacrifices were certainly used as a means of ritual purification during the era of the Temple, they were NEVER thought to be the principal means of repentance or atonement from sin even in the time of Moses. The Torah (Pentateuch, Mosaic Law) and Tanakh (Hebrew Bible, Old Testament in general) are clear that prayer and acts of loving-kindness are the major means of atonement rather than animal sacrifices. With regard to the Torah’s not being the Word of G-d but instead only a cultural belief system, this is not in keeping with official doctrine of either Orthodox or Conservative Judaism and is not even held by all who adhere to Reform Judaism. This does not mean, however, that all the passages of the books in the Hebrew Bible are or should be interpreted only on a literal level.

 

[Julia_Mae]

G-d does not evolve, at least according to Jewish teaching and, I believe, the Catholic Church as well. However, Cardinal Pell may have been referring to the development of the people’s understanding of G-d rather than G-d Himself.

This.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

G-d does not evolve, at least according to Jewish teaching and, I believe, the Catholic Church as well. However, Cardinal Pell may have been referring to the development of the people’s understanding of G-d rather than G-d Himself.

Well said. You’ve summed it up well.

This is not Jewish belief. While animal sacrifices were certainly used as a means of ritual purification during the era of the Temple, they were NEVER thought to be the principal means of repentance or atonement from sin even in the time of Moses. The Torah (Pentateuch, Mosaic Law) and Tanakh (Hebrew Bible, Old Testament in general) are clear that prayer and acts of loving-kindness are the major means of atonement rather than animal sacrifices.

Ah, so Jesus was being quite faithful, then, to his Jewish beliefs when he praised the scribe who claimed, “to love him with all your heart, with all your understanding, with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is worth more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

 

[meltzerboy]

Well said. You’ve summed it up well.

Ah, so Jesus was being quite faithful, then, to his Jewish beliefs when he praised the scribe who claimed, “to love him with all your heart, with all your understanding, with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is worth more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Indeed Jesus was well aware of the Law as well as those who did and did not adhere to it.

 

[meltzerboy]

“…There was an evolution in the Old Testament. There are some awful things there. It developed the notion of God, was purified as it went through the Old Testament.” Cardinal George Pell of Sydney, Australia. Quote is from a YouTube video regarding a question and answer session between Richard Dawkins and the Cardinal.

The concept that he notion of God was purified/evolved throughout the Old Testament is new to me. Is this just the Cardinal’s personal opinion? Is it dogma or at least taught by the Magisterium?

Could somebody give an example of the notion of God evolving in the Old Testament?

Off-topic, but I’m just curious what the meaning of “atheist in the narrowest sense of the term” is?

 

[inocente]

Could somebody give an example of the notion of God evolving in the Old Testament?

In this piece the Pope writes about the evolving understanding of God in the bible and since.

philvaz.com/apologetics/p81.htm

 

[Nimeniton]

I can give an example of the notion of God evolving in the Old Testament. Animal sacrifce. At the beginning of the Jewish nation God requires animal sacrifice and as you progress scripture begins to teach that God prefers righteousness to animal sacrifice.

You must understand that scripture was put together through tribal/traditional stories handed down orally. It was supposedly compiled in scripture around the time of exile of the Jewish people; in so that the inconsistancy of the notion of God can merely be contributed to an exaggerated story or some sort of fictional aspect that the story acquired while being handed down orally. For example, the law of Moses is no other than a cultural belief system shared by a peoples and indeed is not from the mouth of God.

I need to ask at this stage whether this is your own personal view or the teaching of the church. In particular your claim that the law of Moses is not from the mouth of God. Certainly when you read the Books of Moses it claim that it is God speaking through Moses. Could you provide me with an authoritative source that affirms your claim that the Law of Moses is not divinely inspired, please?

 

[Nimeniton]

Off-topic, but I’m just curious what the meaning of “atheist in the narrowest sense of the term” is?

Indeed, off topic but happy to answer so long as it does not sidetrack from the issue at hand. It simply means, seeing no good reason to believe in God. No more and no less. And by God I mean the traditional, eternal creator, omnipotent, omniscient deity who is involved in human affairs. Other definitions of a deity such as deism, pantheism etc may be possible though I have not given them much thought.

I find that Christians will often assume that other beliefs are thus attached to my atheism such as being pro abortion (not true - there are atheists who are anti abortion) or a refusal to accept that there is a non material element. Some of my experiences have led me to believe that there may well be a non material element.

 

[Nimeniton]

In this piece the Pope writes about the evolving understanding of God in the bible and since.

philvaz.com/apologetics/p81.htm

Thanks. That was what I was after. I will read it when I have a free moment.

 

[meltzerboy]

Indeed, off topic but happy to answer so long as it does not sidetrack from the issue at hand. It simply means, seeing no good reason to believe in God. No more and no less. And by God I mean the traditional, eternal creator, omnipotent, omniscient deity who is involved in human affairs. Other definitions of a deity such as deism, pantheism etc may be possible though I have not given them much thought.

I find that Christians will often assume that other beliefs are thus attached to my atheism such as being pro abortion (not true - there are atheists who are anti abortion) or a refusal to accept that there is a non material element. Some of my experiences have led me to believe that there may well be a non material element.

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Nimeniton]

G-d does not evolve, at least according to Jewish teaching and, I believe, the Catholic Church as well. However, Cardinal Pell may have been referring to the development of the people’s understanding of G-d rather than G-d Himself.

I am am surprised that many people (not just you) see my question as a matter of differentiating between the evolution of God and the evolution of the notion of God. My question makes it quite clear that I am talking about the evolution of** the notion** of God and I am looking for authoritative sources to support. Only one person has gone to the trouble to give me that source . He/she kindly gave me this source philvaz.com/apologetics/p81.htm. So, I am looking for authoritative sources and not people’s personal opinions, interesting though they maybe - I am aware that some Catholics don’t make it clear that it is just their personal opinion and this can cause confusion.

 

[Joe_5859]

Much of the idea is simply a commentary on Hebrews 1:1-2:

In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets; in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe

The Church often speaks about this as the Divine Pedagogy of God.

CCC 53 … It involves a specific divine pedagogy: God communicates himself to man gradually. He prepares him to welcome by stages the supernatural Revelation that is to culminate in the person and mission of the incarnate Word, Jesus Christ…

Vatican II’s Dei Verbum touches on it:

1. The principal purpose to which the plan of the old covenant was directed was to prepare for the coming of Christ, the redeemer of all and of the messianic kingdom, to announce this coming by prophecy (see Luke 24:44; John 5:39; 1 Peter 1:10), and to indicate its meaning through various types (see 1 Cor. 10:12). Now the books of the Old Testament, in accordance with the state of mankind before the time of salvation established by Christ, reveal to all men the knowledge of God and of man and the ways in which God, just and merciful, deals with men. These books, though they also contain some things which are incomplete and temporary, nevertheless show us true divine pedagogy. (1) These same books, then, give expression to a lively sense of God, contain a store of sublime teachings about God, sound wisdom about human life, and a wonderful treasury of prayers, and in them the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way. Christians should receive them with reverence.
2. God, the inspirer and author of both Testaments, wisely arranged that the New Testament be hidden in the Old and the Old be made manifest in the New. (2) For, though Christ established the new covenant in His blood (see Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25), still the books of the Old Testament with all their parts, caught up into the proclamation of the Gospel, (3) acquire and show forth their full meaning in the New Testament (see Matt. 5:17; Luke 24:27; Rom. 16:25-26; 2 Cor. 14:16) and in turn shed light on it and explain it.

The General Directory for Catechesis comments on the issue a bit more specifically, at least in reference to how our catechsis is modelled after God’s own way of teaching:

GDC 112 …This is accomplished, gradually, by following the example of the divine pedagogy with which God revealed himself progressively and gradually…

 

[Nimeniton]

Much of the idea is simply a commentary on “ttp://www.usccb.org/bible/hebrews/1”]**Hebrews 1:1-2
…

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a1.htm#53**…

Vatican II’s vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

Matt. 5:17; Luke 24:27; Rom. 16:25-26; 2 Cor. 14:16)

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...doc_17041998_directory-for-catechesis_en.html"]General Directory for Catechesis :

Thanks for all your sources and your commentary. Much appreciated. Fairly short articles too though they will need reading more than once. Still ill health gives me the time and if I can find something I disagree with then a little extra energy to read it in double quick time

 

[ApologiaSophia]

“…There was an evolution in the Old Testament. There are some awful things there. It developed the notion of God, was purified as it went through the Old Testament.” Cardinal George Pell of Sydney, Australia. Quote is from a YouTube video regarding a question and answer session between Richard Dawkins and the Cardinal.

The concept that he notion of God was purified/evolved throughout the Old Testament is new to me. Is this just the Cardinal’s personal opinion? Is it dogma or at least taught by the Magisterium?

Could somebody give an example of the notion of God evolving in the Old Testament?

This is specifically called “Progressive Revelation.” It does not say God evolves per se, but that the concept or understand God’s people had of God became clearer over time. An example, as a Christian, could be your belief in the Trinity. Another is the belief that God is the God of all people, not just Israelites. See Jonah and the Ninevites. The prophets reveal God’s plan for gentiles, His messiah, and the age to come. In Genesis you have no explicitly stated Law, in the rest of the Pentateuch you have a long series of laws. These are some examples.

Also, this is why we have the Christological hermeneutic for interpreting Scripture. For Christ is the full revelation of God. This is why we can return to the Hebrew Scriptures and find a deeper, fuller meaning of those Scriptures. The Old Testament provides insight into the New, and the New Testament sheds light onto the Old.