Novel retort that stumped me

[jim1130]

So I was talking to a friend who believes in OSAS about how he* could* lose his salvation. I showed him all the verses where Jesus and the Apostles warned that they could lose their salvation. He replied that for all those occasions where the believers would ‘die’ ‘be cast out’ ‘forfeit their lives’ etc did not mean that their salvation would be lost.

He said -

The death here refers to bodily death and not losing ones salvation. As a case in point, read the story of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-10 who lied to the Holy Spirit. God judged them for this and both were killed.

Another sin that is associated with death is found in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 where it is reported that a man was having sexual relations with his father’s wife.

“It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 And you have become arrogant, and have not mourned instead, in order that the one who had done this deed might be removed from your midst. 3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus,” (1 Cor. 5:1-5).

I gotta say … that stumped me.

I already included this once, but will again. It is from Catholic Answers:

catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation

“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

 

[TimothyH]

I think I know what you mean, but Catholics take the position of St. Paul in 1 Cor 4:3-5 “But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or any human court. I do not even judge myself. I AM NOT AWARE OF ANYTHING AGAINST ME, BUT I AM NOT THEREBY ACQUITTED. It is The Lord who judges me. Therefore, do not pronounce judgment before the time, before The Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart.”

You see, Catholics aren’t sitting around rocking back and forth saying “Am I going to hell? Am I going to hell???” We do have assurance in the sacraments, especially in the sacrament of Penance. When I hear the words of absolution, I KNOW my sins are forgiven! I feel this amazing peace. But I can’t say I have absolute metaphysical certainty that I will for sure make it to Heaven, when St. Paul didn’t even have that.

All the warnings in the Bible are there not to scare us but to warn us. Matthew 10:22 says “He who endures to the end will be saved.” And Romans 11:22 “Note then the kindness and severity of God. Severity towards those who fell, but kindness towards you. provided you continue in faith, otherwise you too will be cut off.” We have to persevere in Christ. Again, St Paul makes it clear "Therefore, I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after having preached to others, I myself might be disqualified. (I Cor 9:27) “But let him who thinks he stands firm take care not to fall.” (1 Cor 10:12)

Again this doesn’t mean we have no assurance whatsoever, but we take into account all of scripture, and if Jesus and St. Paul and others say we can lose our salvation, I’m gonna listen to them.

I think this is a very important post, something Catholics should take to heart.

Of all humanity, we have the sacraments, the fullness of truth, and the reas presence of Jesus Christ. That is an amazing advantage.

You are right Robyn, in pointing out that Paul had great confidence that he had run the race well and would be given the victors cown. We can’t presume, but Paul had great confidence in God’s mercy and love for those who tried their best to do God’s will.

Of all Christians, Catholics should be full of hope.

-Tim-

 

[LaSalle]

Folks, most of you are not addressing his defense. He believes that all the warnings about death are the kind of death that Ananias and Sapphira experienced. It doesn’t take away salvation.

I think bookcat and Prayer Warrior came closest - The issue here is ‘may’

“The delivery to Satan is intended to convert the man (bring him to repentance) so as to save His soul.”

I think that’s the strongest argument.

HOWEVER, I bet he’s gonna say that being sent to Satan is NOT for an opportunity to repent, but that Satan KILLS the person afterall it’s not a stretch to take ‘destruction of his flesh’ to mean kill. And that is PRECISELY what he believes - the believers commits a serious sin (i.e.immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles) and Satan is allowed to kill them so that they may be saved.

Of course it leads to a strange outcome … to get to salvation, just commit a serious sin and the devil will send you to heaven … but hey … if that’s what he believes the bible says …

Do you see where he’s coming from?

 

[Bookcat]

Such would be foreign to the meaning there. Paul is not saying “put him to death”…

Such would be an assertion that he would not be finding in the context of the text.

 

[TimothyH]

Folks, most of you are not addressing his defense. He believes that all the warnings about death are the kind of death that Ananias and Sapphira experienced. It doesn’t take away salvation.

I think bookcat and Prayer Warrior came closest - The issue here is ‘may’

“The delivery to Satan is intended to convert the man (bring him to repentance) so as to save His soul.”

I think that’s the strongest argument.

HOWEVER, I bet he’s gonna say that being sent to Satan is NOT for an opportunity to repent, but that Satan KILLS the person afterall it’s not a stretch to take ‘destruction of his flesh’ to mean kill. And that is PRECISELY what he believes - the believers commits a serious sin (i.e.immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles) and Satan is allowed to kill them so that they may be saved.

Of course it leads to a strange outcome … to get to salvation, just commit a serious sin and the devil will send you to heaven … but hey … if that’s what he believes the bible says …

Do you see where he’s coming from?

I addressed it point blank in post number 2.

-Tim-

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

I think one would need to be proficient in the Greek to be able to state with authority (since it is a conjugated form of “to save”), but the way I read that is “may” is the same sense as “able to”, “allowed to”, or “permitted to”. A happens so B is able/allowed/permitted to happen. B cannot happen unless A happens. Therefore, A happens so B may happen.

You buy a ticket to the theater so that you may watch a movie. You take guitar lessons so that you may play the guitar. Etc.

One way to help without becoming an expert in Greek, is to look where else the phrase occurs. The phrase “may be saved” occurs 6 times in the NASB.

 

[LaSalle]

I think one would need to be proficient in the Greek to be able to state with authority (since it is a conjugated form of “to save”), but the way I read that is “may” is the same sense as “able to”, “allowed to”, or “permitted to”. A happens so B is able/allowed/permitted to happen. B cannot happen unless A happens. Therefore, A happens so B may happen.

You buy a ticket to the theater so that you may watch a movie. You take guitar lessons so that you may play the guitar. Etc.

One way to help without becoming an expert in Greek, is to look where else the phrase occurs. The phrase “may be saved” occurs 6 times in the NASB.

Yes, that’s precisely what I meant. The ‘may’ is used this way. This reduces this verse -

I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus," (1 Cor. 5:1-5).

to mean - such a one dies (destruction of the flesh) but he is still saved in the day of Lord Jesus (i.e. attains salvation).

This understanding, however, does not make sense. If someone commits a grave sin, he experiences body death but is ultimately saved, why bother with all the warnings to refrain from sin? The message is SIN big and go to heaven now! Don’t sin and you linger on on earth.

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

Yes, that’s precisely what I meant. The ‘may’ is used this way. This reduces this verse -

I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus," (1 Cor. 5:1-5).

to mean - such a one dies (destruction of the flesh) but he is still saved in the day of Lord Jesus (i.e. attains salvation).

This understanding, however, does not make sense. If someone commits a grave sin, he experiences body death but is ultimately saved, why bother with all the warnings to refrain from sin? The message is SIN big and go to heaven now! Don’t sin and you linger on on earth.

I still think the “may” reads in the same way as I described above. I don’t think the “destruction of flesh” is referring to physical death. The whole context seems to imply excommunication. In other words, the one being delivered is someone whose words are saying they are Christian, but they are living a lifestyle of sin instead of one of repentance. And rather than this sin influence the rest of the church, this person is removed and delivered into their own sin.

I think the rub here is that the repentance is implied because, obviously, living in sin nor being physically killed as a sinner is not going to bring about salvation. Realizing that the sin is the cause of the “destruction of the flesh” and repenting from it does.