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Ockham
Guest
Where did he do that?
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Ockham
Guest
How’s this for “novelty”? rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/10/stand-up-stand-up-people-of-god.html
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pnewton
Guest
Back to the subject - fruitcake.
The problem with fruitcake is that no one eats it. They keep it around until next Christmas and give it as a gift to someone else. Eventually, after maybe twenty years, it is discarded, a new one bought and the cycle renews. Just imagine if one year the fruitcake was thrown away and a pecan pie was given instead. It would be gone by New Year’s Day.
The Holy Father is allowed, and can allow bishops, to decide enough with the fruitcake already. Let us eat pecan pie. It sounds like a reasonable move. Here in lies the problem. While I see many of the things railed against as a matter of preference, many of you do not. You may see that we traded our delicious fruitcake for cardboard. In other words, Mass has changed substantially, not just in externals.
I point this out because I know that I and others can be dismissive of traditionalists unfairly by focusing on the areas where some preference and prudence is allowed instead of recognizing that some changes are deemed to be a great deal more than preference. The translation of pro multis is a change of substance. The vernular is (considered by most) a change of preference. Music is usually considered a matter of preference, whereas the orientation of the priest is a symbol that is lost when the priest faces the people. CITH is something that for some is a preference, for others a matter of the profane being separated from the holy.
When I see posters (traditionalists) make such statements like “try it, you’ll like it” in its myriad of variation, I tend to think they are more attracted to the TLM for reasons of preference. However, most here have a real conviction that the two forms are of a different nature and focus on those areas that are seen as changing the symbolism, meaning and character of the Mass. Such people should not be dismissed as a matter of taste. For them it is far deeper.
I point this out again so that you know you are being heard. That and I like to slam on fruitcake.
The problem with fruitcake is that no one eats it. They keep it around until next Christmas and give it as a gift to someone else. Eventually, after maybe twenty years, it is discarded, a new one bought and the cycle renews. Just imagine if one year the fruitcake was thrown away and a pecan pie was given instead. It would be gone by New Year’s Day.
The Holy Father is allowed, and can allow bishops, to decide enough with the fruitcake already. Let us eat pecan pie. It sounds like a reasonable move. Here in lies the problem. While I see many of the things railed against as a matter of preference, many of you do not. You may see that we traded our delicious fruitcake for cardboard. In other words, Mass has changed substantially, not just in externals.
I point this out because I know that I and others can be dismissive of traditionalists unfairly by focusing on the areas where some preference and prudence is allowed instead of recognizing that some changes are deemed to be a great deal more than preference. The translation of pro multis is a change of substance. The vernular is (considered by most) a change of preference. Music is usually considered a matter of preference, whereas the orientation of the priest is a symbol that is lost when the priest faces the people. CITH is something that for some is a preference, for others a matter of the profane being separated from the holy.
When I see posters (traditionalists) make such statements like “try it, you’ll like it” in its myriad of variation, I tend to think they are more attracted to the TLM for reasons of preference. However, most here have a real conviction that the two forms are of a different nature and focus on those areas that are seen as changing the symbolism, meaning and character of the Mass. Such people should not be dismissed as a matter of taste. For them it is far deeper.
I point this out again so that you know you are being heard. That and I like to slam on fruitcake.
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Layman
Guest
I look at it differently. An ancient mystical rite should not be the tinkertoy of mere intellectuals. That’s what I think it’s become. Attended a course or two on the liturgy? You too can make a contribution to The Mass Of The Roman Catholic Church!
It’s like the restoration I saw to a Titian painting. Just a bit of a clean up. Not a big deal. Except removing the patina of two hundred years also destroyed a trick of perspective in the painting. A small thing, but a significantly different work resulted.
When you list the changes since the 1940’s, one wonders what the intent is. If there is a stated intent, has that been achieved? We all know what’s been said at Mass now, but casual clothing, the buzz of noise and the handling of the Host suggests we’re no longer awed by it.
Vernacular is only piece of the puzzle. It was a slight gain in one way while the rest of silverware was put away in the attic: you will support the new rite and you will like it. [Just to make sure, if you wanted the old rite, you’d have to travel 100 miles to attend the private mass of an anguished old priest pushed to the margins of the Church.]
It’s also disquieting that these changes seem to mirror, rather than challenge, the upset in wider Western society: democratisation, ‘dumbing down’, rejecting the past, rejecting authority, personalisation.
If you follow trends you’re going to have to keep following fashion or look outdated when the fashionistas move on or get older.
As I said earlier, the N.O. may have saved the TLM. Those who want to experiment and update now have a rite to suit, while those who want continuity and stability have the old rite (or hopefully will, according to the politics of their diocese).
Anyone wanting to stamp their own personality on the TLM will now reveal themselves as a dilettante, whereas in a liberal diocese a priest who does such to the N.O. could seem quite dynamic. To some.
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pnewton
Guest
An interesting analogy. The Holy Father thinks along similar lines as he used the removing of whitewash from a fresco. Probably a better analogy than fruitcake since the Holy Father uses it.
He pointed out both the dangers and benefits of such an undertaking.
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Joannm
Guest
If you want to use that analogy of the fresco…removing 500 years of soot and dirt from the Sistine chapel resulted in exposing colors that were never known possible. Colors that were hidden for centuries suddenly appeared as the day they were painted. The result was magnificent!
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Layman
Guest
Hmmm, dunno what doing it in English would add to a TLM, what colours or beauty it would bring out. Hopefully, this rite is safe from shallow technicians and wilful experimenters. Otherwise …
To the liturgical dancing costumiers! (and here)
[Fumble, grumble “Where’s me cheque-book?”]
{Comments on the second site are interesting.
“The outfits are not what I am lookng for. You must get up-dated. It is not about looking glitzy, it is about being humble and ministering to those through your dance.”
“Don’t focus heavily on the outside appearance because God looks at our hearts and our desire to serve him. Don’t worry about those who are making mockery, it is for them that we dance and pray to God to move on their hearts so that they may be saved!”}
To the liturgical dancing costumiers! (and here)
[Fumble, grumble “Where’s me cheque-book?”]
{Comments on the second site are interesting.
“The outfits are not what I am lookng for. You must get up-dated. It is not about looking glitzy, it is about being humble and ministering to those through your dance.”
“Don’t focus heavily on the outside appearance because God looks at our hearts and our desire to serve him. Don’t worry about those who are making mockery, it is for them that we dance and pray to God to move on their hearts so that they may be saved!”}
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CWBetts
Guest
Wow. Another sarcastic post, assuming that everyone who prefers the Ordinary Form is a liberal idiot, and that faithful Catholics only attend the Extraordinary Form. You obviously have nothing constructive to add.
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pnewton
Guest
Wrong thread. This is not about liturgical dancing nor is anyone here interested.
…unless you are trying to build the monster of all strawmen.
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Layman
Guest
The thread is about Novus Ordo as a man-centred rite. Having dancing during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, a re-enactment of Calvary, is not right, but it has happened. I vividly recall a big picture printed, without comment, on the front page of the Irish Catholic newspaper, of such a Mass, in Drogheda.
I don’t think average O.F. is going to feature liturgical dancing any time soon, given what I perceive/hope are current trends in the liturgy and to make sure of it I’m going to do my little, tiny bit on this thread, right now, to flag up its absurdity.
Many changes leave the door open for more. Given that, can you say: “Thus far and no further” to those for whom internal reverence is paramount?
I don’t think average O.F. is going to feature liturgical dancing any time soon, given what I perceive/hope are current trends in the liturgy and to make sure of it I’m going to do my little, tiny bit on this thread, right now, to flag up its absurdity.
Many changes leave the door open for more. Given that, can you say: “Thus far and no further” to those for whom internal reverence is paramount?
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Layman
Guest
And you put words in my mouth.
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pnewton
Guest
I have been to thousands of Mass and not seen it. When it comes up, few here have. Build your strawman if you must, but I know it for what it is. I guess the current Mass really has not problems of signifigance for you if you have to dig into irrelevances.
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Ockham
Guest
How is liturgical dancing a strawman to this thread? It certainly isn’t a threat in the TLM. Liturgical liberals want this element in the NO precisely because it is more man centred. Many feel the NO’s purpose is for experimentation and customization. If there weren’t people pressuring for this change we wouldn’t have rulings against it. Think about it. How are we better worshipping Christ by watching some young woman in tights leaping down the aisles?
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Layman
Guest
It’s an extreme, certainly. It looks like it could never happen. But I didn’t think funeral orations by lay people would happen, either. My mother mentioned hearing of this locally, and mentioned one particularly absurd performance, but I didn’t pay much attention, until I went to the funeral of a close relative and saw and heard another relative give a very emotional speech from the pulpit.
I can’t give more details without identifying the persons involved but it was a day of unwelcome experiences which showed me how much things had changed even in twenty years.
I can’t give more details without identifying the persons involved but it was a day of unwelcome experiences which showed me how much things had changed even in twenty years.
- The propitiatory, Holy Sacrifice of The Mass;
- The cross on the hill of Calvary;
- The kingship of Jesus;
- The uncertainty of salvation;
- The possibility of damnation.
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pnewton
Guest
Liturgical dancing is not in the Order of the Mass. If “novus ordo” is truly an innocently used term then why not stick to this one topic?
Where in the order of Mass is liturgical dancing? Is the Rite under discussion or are we open to throw out any and everything we do not like? If one were to bring up antisemetism as characteristics of traditionalist gone extreme, would you not rightful call it off topic or an unfair generalization. Yet, I could use the same excuses to bring it up that liturgical dancing enjoys.
Such things are an unfair attack and distraction, whether it be liturgical dancing for the Roman Missal, antisemetism for Traditional Catholics or sex abuse scandals for celibacy. If you insist, then go ahead. I have made my objection.
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Silverburg
Guest
You’re wrong. That’s simply not the name given to that Mass by the Church.
I feel very confident I know more about the history of the different sacrificial liturgies in the Church than you do based on your comments within this thread.
Using “Novus Ordo” and “NO” in this day and age is a red flag signaling ignorance and/or bigotry. There really is no other reason one would use the name.
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Silverburg
Guest
Me too!
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Silverburg
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Silverburg
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What have you attended that somehow makes you make such statements? Who are you to judge others far more qualified than yourself as “mere intellectuals?”
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Ockham
Guest
Liturgical dancing is not currently in the GIRM, but if history repeats itself we could easily have it. CITH wasn’t in the GIRM, the pope of the day clearly ruled against the practice, but enough clergy and laity wanted it so now it’s the norm. I’ve heard liturgical liberals in parishes committees complain that we don’t do enough innovation and creativity, that dance would enhance people’s appreciation of the celebration and keep the youth engaged. Honestly. The point here is the NO is vulnerable to such abuse and the TLM isn’t. I believe liturgical dance usually occurs during the laity’s presentation of gifts. There is no such opportunity in the TLM. Rather than a strawman, liturgical dance is actually a very good example of how the NO is a man centred rite as opposed to the TLM which is much more God centred.
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