Novus Ordo as man centered rite

[Cluny]

Sure. Individually. But such changes, collectively inserted into the Roman Catholic rite, all at once …?

I’m talking about the Roman Catholic, Latin rite. That’s the one that had major changes to it.

Doesn’t prove anything. The whole is never greater than the sum of its parts.

You can go all red in the face, shake your wattles, and jump up and down, but you can’t make the claim that the Pauline mass is man-centered stick for 5 minutes, even if you tried with both hands.

Just as likewise it would be prudent to remember that
Quote:
to call the Novus Ordo a Mass of all time/ages" is at best just an expression of how people feel about it. It certainly is untrue in itself

Nobody, to my knowledge, makes that claim about the Pauline mass, aka Ordinary Form of the Roman rite. Only partisans of the EF say such a thing about their own preference.

I will claim, however, that ALL authorized Eucharistic Liturgies of the Church, offered validly and licity according to the rubrics and norms, are the SAME Eternal Sacrifice make present in time under veils of bread and wine.

 

[estesbob]

Pax, we know what is the big difference between the modern and traditional rite. And still our Mass today the Novus Ordo is the way of diversities and abuses in the liturgy. Traditionalist like me believe that this mass is no longer a God-centered rite but a man centered rite. Why priest need to face the people in order to celebrate mass in novus ordo, giving homily outside the pulpit and changing the words of consecration???

I think its great that you find inspiration and fullfillment in the EF. I dont. I went to one recently and was hugely disapointed. I do. however, find great inspiration and fullfillment when i attend the OF (usually daily). My question is since both of us have found a Mass that suits our spiritual needs why are you trying deny me the joy of attending the one I pefer?

 

[Cluny]

<<One common theme with the changes is getting the laity more ‘involved’. Couple that with removing beautiful, didactic prayers and add in modern, bare churches …>>

I supposed you’ve not seen the Charterhouse in Vermont, then.

Of course, austerity in Church furnishings and ornamentation has always been part of Carthusian and, to a lesser extent, Cistercian practice.

 

[Layman]

Doesn’t prove anything. The whole is never greater than the sum of its parts.

You can go all red in the face, shake your wattles, and jump up and down, but you can’t make the claim that the Pauline mass is man-centered stick for 5 minutes, even if you tried with both hands.

I’ve pointed out a trend. A disturbing one. I’m not getting excited about it. Just attending and supporting TLM’s when I can. I invite others to do the same. Go for three months solid, to High Masses, if you can, then go to a Novus Ordo mass.

 

[Layman]

<<One common theme with the changes is getting the laity more ‘involved’. Couple that with removing beautiful, didactic prayers and add in modern, bare churches …>>

I supposed you’ve not seen the Charterhouse in Vermont, then.

Of course, austerity in Church furnishings and ornamentation has always been part of Carthusian and, to a lesser extent, Cistercian practice.

Nope. Just looked through a book my mother borrowed, showing pictures of church interiors in the area where I come from in Ireland. The interiors of modern churches are quite bare compared to the old ones.

One can pick and choose what you want from history, from one’s armchair. But to then insert it into the centre of our worship, all at once, while forbidding the old rite …

 

[Cluny]

<<One can pick and choose what you want from history, from one’s armchair. But to then insert it into the centre of our worship, all at once, while forbidding the old rite …>>

Who’s forbidding it? Certainly not I.

But one can also cherrypick the worst of abuses and hold them up as the norm of something, especially in polemics trying to defend one’s own point.

Once you’ve attended the Divine Liturgy, even an EF Missa Solemnis is bland.

You can see the Vermont Charterhouse here.

transfiguration.chartreux.org/

 

[Silverburg]

I think for anyone to refer to the Ordinary Form of the Mass as the “Novus Ordo” or “NO” in this day and age says a great deal negative about said person. When I meet someone in real life who uses either term I immediately stop listening to them because either they are ignorant about what the Church calls the Ordinary Form of the Mass or they are bigoted.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

It’s a trend. Compare and contrast with the TLM. Before and after.

One common theme with the changes is getting the laity more ‘involved’. Couple that with removing beautiful, didactic prayers and add in modern, bare churches …

Oh lol, you can’t be serious, comparing a search of “latin mass” to “ted kennedy funeral”.

 

[Layman]

I think for anyone to refer to the Ordinary Form of the Mass as the “Novus Ordo” or “NO” in this day and age says a great deal negative about said person. When I meet someone in real life who uses either term I immediately stop listening to them because either they are ignorant about what the Church calls the Ordinary Form of the Mass or they are bigoted.

The Novus Ordo was the original name for that Mass. All it means is ‘New Order’ or N.O. for short, like TLM for the Traditional Latin Mass. The Ordinary Form is a term Pope Benedict has given it recently. I think it’s confusing, myself.

40 years is a long time in the life of a man but a short time in the life of the Church, especially with the introduction of a new rite.

 

[Layman]

Oh lol, you can’t be serious, comparing a search of “latin mass” to “ted kennedy funeral”.

That’s the most famous recent Novus Ordo mass I could think of and one you’d think would be well done, given the circumstances.

I went to a funeral of a Catholic relative, recently. One of my relatives gave an emotional speech from the pulpit. It was totally unsuited to the context. I’ve heard it’s quite common, now.

 

[estesbob]

The Novus Ordo was the original name for that Mass. All it means is ‘New Order’ or N.O. for short, like TLM for the Traditional Latin Mass. The Ordinary Form is a term Pope Benedict has given it recently. I think it’s confusing, myself.

40 years is a long time in the life of a man but a short time in the life of the Church, especially with the introduction of a new rite.

The term “Novus Ordo” was never the official name of the Mass. When it replaced he TLM it became the “Ordinary Form” or “OF” Mass.

I am still wondering so many of those those who take special joy in the EF are so intent on denigrating the OF? Why are so many of them trying to take this option away from us?

 

[Layman]

Personally, I would like the O.F./N.O. done the way Pope who oversaw its introduction intended it. I would, however, still mourn the loss of the beautiful, educational and edifying prayers of the E.F./TLM.

Imagine: An O.F. done ad-orientem, with chant and Latin and without the recent add-ons.

 

[centurionguard]

The term “Novus Ordo” was never the official name of the Mass. When it replaced he TLM it became the “Ordinary Form” or “OF” Mass.

I am still wondering so many of those those who take special joy in the EF are so intent on denigrating the OF? Why are so many of them trying to take this option away from us?

I am still wondering so many of those those who take special joy in the EF are so intent on denigrating the OF? Why are so many of them trying to take this option away from us?

I trust also that you would prceive the same with those preferring the OF denigrating the EF.

I “sometimes” see it as a bunch of chidren on two sides of a fence having a verbal brawl on who’s the bloody king of the castle. Personally I favor both Masses. But I also see a lot of errancies which will take much human evolution and inspiration from the Holy Spirit to remedy.

 

[estesbob]

I trust also that you would prceive the same with those preferring the OF denigrating the EF.

Yes-I think it is very much a matter of preference.

 

[palmas85]

The term “Novus Ordo” was never the official name of the Mass. When it replaced he TLM it became the “Ordinary Form” or “OF” Mass.

I am still wondering so many of those those who take special joy in the EF are so intent on denigrating the OF? Why are so many of them trying to take this option away from us?

And I am still wondering so many of those those who take special joy in the OF are so intent on denigrating the EF? Why are so many of them trying to take this option away from us?

The argument goes both ways my friend.

 

[Cluny]

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Are such errors inherent in the original Latin text of the OF?

Or are they the result of the present English translation–soon to be rectified?

Can you give particular examples of what you’re talking about?

 

[Cluny]

<<That’s the most famous recent Novus Ordo mass I could think of and one you’d think would be well done, given the circumstances.>>

I guess you didn’t see Pope Benedict XVI celebrating the Ordinary Form in the Czech Republic, did you?

This was just last week.

Do you actually think this is more famous than Ted Kennedy’s funeral?

Or do you deliberately ignore Masses like this?

 

[Layman]

<<That’s the most famous recent Novus Ordo mass I could think of and one you’d think would be well done, given the circumstances.>>

I guess you didn’t see Pope Benedict XVI celebrating the Ordinary Form in the Czech Republic, did you?

This was just last week.

Do you actually think this is more famous than Ted Kennedy’s funeral?

Or do you deliberately ignore Masses like this?

Nope, I didn’t know about it. And I doubt the Pope’s Masses reflect what happens at diocesan level; in this case, a diocese’s final Mass for a famous son.

 

[Cluny]

Nope, I didn’t know about it. And I doubt the Pope’s Masses reflect what happens at diocesan level; in this case, a diocese’s final Mass for a famous son.

Wrong again.

It was NOT the diocese’s mass. In fact the Cardinal Archbishop of Boston REFUSED to allow it to be held at the Cathedral, and refused to celebrate the mass! All he did was bless the body at the end.

In any case, Pope Benedict has dropped not-so-gentle hints that how he celebrates publicly (which includes, on occasion, ad orientum, the arrangement of candlesticks and crucifix) is supposed to be providing an example for celebrations elsewhere.

Maybe if you paid more attention to what the Pope actually says and does, you’d have less time to scour the net looking up things to work yourself up into a righteous snit over.

 

[estesbob]

<<That’s the most famous recent Novus Ordo mass I could think of and one you’d think would be well done, given the circumstances.>>

I guess you didn’t see Pope Benedict XVI celebrating the Ordinary Form in the Czech Republic, did you?

This was just last week.

Do you actually think this is more famous than Ted Kennedy’s funeral?

Or do you deliberately ignore Masses like this?

What difference doe it make?