Novus Ordo in Latin?

[Cat]

In answer to the OP’s question, I think that the bishop and priests in any given diocese discern through prayer and their special charisms that OF Masses in the vernacular rather than in Latin will better meet the spiritual needs of the Catholics under their care.

This decision is up to the bishop, not up to the congregation, although I’m guessing that many bishops would be sensitive to the requests of the faithful, and if a large enough group approached and asked, perhaps a bishop would establish an OF Mass in Latin in his diocese.

I personally attend an OF Mass because I want to hear Mass in my own language so that I can understand the hymns, the responses, and the teachings, and not have to refer to a translation guide throughout the Mass–this makes me feel like I am in a classroom rather than present at the Cross of Calvary.

Yes, the Church calls for the retention of Latin, but she does not call for the use of Latin through the entire Mass.

 

[Brendan]

Well, yeah, priest learn Latin, but there are no native speakers in the United States at least. No stable community of native speakers for a priest to dedicate one of his allotted masses to serve.

Did you read any of the links. THere is no need for any native speakers. Rather, the Church uses Latin, as Blessed Pope John XXIII noted, because it is a neutral language. It does not favor one cluture or langauge over another.

That is why Pope Benedict (and the Synod of Bishops) called for it’s use in multilingual environments.

Let me give you an example. I am very familar with the Latin OF Mass. I grew up with it. The parish my grandmother went to was half Irish and German and half Hispanic. Prior to the ‘new’ Mass, everyone worshiped together. THere was not "Spanish Mass’ and "English Mass’. When the new Missal was published, the pastor just used the Novus Ordo in Latin and everyone continued to worship together. Thus when we took grandma to Mass ( which got to be quite often as she aged) we went to a Latin OF Mass.

Fast forward to about 5-10 years ago. I was travelling globally for work, extensively. Seoul one week, Sao Paulo the next. Since it would be impractical to learn all the very languages for the multitude of countries I was in, or going to be in, I simply relied on my Latin. I would email the chancelory office of where I was going to be, and find out where and when the Latin Masses would be at. So I could fully and consciencely participate in a Mass in whatever country I was in.

Americans, and really, most English speakers are rather arrogant in that regard. We want everything to be in our langauge.

But consider the international visitor who might be among us, or the recent immigrant. We think we are doing good by sending them to another mass, another parish. How about doing what the Church asks for us to do, to learn the Latin responses and basic chants that are used by the faithful at Mass. That is part of Vatican II, something that the Council told us that we should be able to do ( and subsequently repeated by Popes John Paul II and Benedict).

In that way, we can welcome the visitor like I was welcomed. We can all worship in a common language, TOGETHER.

So if you support the 2nd Vatican Council, why not do what it says we should do?

 

[Chatter163]

This decision is up to the bishop, not up to the congregation, although I’m guessing that many bishops would be sensitive to the requests of the faithful, and if a large enough group approached and asked, perhaps a bishop would establish an OF Mass in Latin in his diocese.

No, the decision is up to priests, specifically pastors. They are the ones who schedule and celebrate Masses, and any priest can always celebrate in Latin.

Is there or has anyone seen a NO in Latin ad orientem?

St. Agnes Church in St. Paul, Minnesota has done this every Sunday, without interruption, since the revised missal began to be used in 1970. They are well-known for this. The Brompton and Birmingham Oratories in England also celebrate the OF ad orientam.

 

[ProVobis]

Well, yeah, priest learn Latin, but there are no native speakers in the United States at least. No stable community of native speakers for a priest to dedicate one of his allotted masses to serve.

And that’s probably the best reason why the Mass should be in Latin. No one knows it that well to ad lib or change its meanings.

They use this principle in law and the courtrooms. For example, habeas corpus can translate to a lot of things but when used in courts it means only one thing. The judge understands and the lawyers understand without translation.

This doesn’t mean, however, that the lawyer can’t explain it to his client in Spanish or English or Polish. And that’s what sermons are for.

 

[Splagchnizomai]

Well, yeah, priest learn Latin, but there are no native speakers in the United States at least. No stable community of native speakers for a priest to dedicate one of his allotted masses to serve.

I wasn’t aware that there were native Latin speakers anywhere in the world.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

Yes, the Church calls for the retention of Latin, but she does not call for the use of Latin through the entire Mass.

It’s mostly for the ordinary of the Mass. Vernacular seemed to be more permitted for the readings and in mission lands. Other than that we should be using Latin, at least according to my reading of Sacrosanctum Concilium.

 

[Digitonomy]

St. Agnes Church in St. Paul, Minnesota has done this every Sunday, without interruption, since the revised missal began to be used in 1970. They are well-known for this.

So did they get to use the third edition immediately after it was issued in 2002, or did they have to wait for the bishop to transmit it to them or issue an approval to begin using it?

 

[YoungTradCath]

I also must say that it can’t be anything but absolutely destructive to have the Spanish speakers, the English speakers, the Polish speakers, etc., all break off and “do their own thing.”

For example, English speakers at my own parish, if they miss the last (1130) Mass in English, just don’t go to Mass even though there’s a Spanish one at 130. I’m like, what?

 

[TimothyH]

I also must say that it can’t be anything but absolutely destructive to have the Spanish speakers, the English speakers, the Polish speakers, etc., all break off and “do their own thing.”

For example, English speakers at my own parish, if they miss the last (1130) Mass in English, just don’t go to Mass even though there’s a Spanish one at 130. I’m like, what?

That likely wound not change even if the whole Mass were in Latin and the homily was still retained in the vernacular.

Parishes segregated by language, some even right across the street from each other, and even Masses within the same parish attended by various ethinc groups according to the native language was not something that came into existence only after the introduction of the Novus Ordo in the vernacular. The language of the homily and the fact that people could actually communicate with their fellow parishoners before and after Mass and in the parking lot has more to do with who attends each Mass than does the language used in the prayers.

And nobody is “Doing their own thing”. The priests are following the rubrics and the Mass in French, Spanish and Polish did not need a retranslation into the third typical edition as did the English last Advent. These always had the correct translation and the English version now matches what they have had all along.

-Tim-

 

[ProVobis]

And nobody is “Doing their own thing”. The priests are following the rubrics and the Mass in French, Spanish and Polish did not need a retranslation into the third typical edition as did the English last Advent. These always had the correct translation and the English version now matches what they have had all along.

It’s interesting then that Spanish Mass has retained its

por vosotros y por todos los hombres (“for you and for all men”)

in the consecration. I heard it myself a few weeks ago.

And there are still many differences between the Polish and English translations.

 

[Digitonomy]

The priests are following the rubrics and the Mass in French, Spanish and Polish did not need a retranslation into the third typical edition as did the English last Advent. These always had the correct translation and the English version now matches what they have had all along-Tim-

As for the French, the new translation is apparently not yet complete. It’s been awhile since I checked on the Spanish, and l assume the Polish is likewise undergoing a review of the previous translation.

 

[liturgyluver]

And nobody is “Doing their own thing”. The priests are following the rubrics and the Mass in French, Spanish and Polish did not need a retranslation into the third typical edition as did the English last Advent. These always had the correct translation and the English version now matches what they have had all along.

-Tim-

BUT the new English translation was just the first - other language are currently being reveiwed and both French and Spanish are in the next wave sccheduled for review next year. In any case there are differences between th current French and Spanish rites - they are not completely co-terminous.

 

[ProVobis]

…and l assume the Polish is likewise undergoing a review of the previous translation.

I hope not. As it stands the Polish captures the Latin nuances (“Lord with you,” “upwards hearts,” etc.) much better than the English. Besides I think Polish is the first language Pope John Paul would have reviewed.

 

[OraLabora]

Is there or has anyone seen a NO in Latin ad orientem?

Yes, in Italy.

 

[TimothyH]

BUT the new English translation was just the first - other language are currently being reveiwed and both French and Spanish are in the next wave sccheduled for review next year. In any case there are differences between th current French and Spanish rites - they are not completely co-terminous.

If I was wrong about the translations then please accept my apologies.

It still doesn’t mean that everyone is “Doing their own thing.” They are doing what the Church allows using the tools given to them by the Church.

-Tim-

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

From Sacrosanctum Concilium:

1. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

1. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.

It seems that the intention of the council was just for vernacular languages to be used for readings and the propers of the Mass, but definitely not the ordinary. Would you agree with this interpretation?

 

[Cat]

From Sacrosanctum Concilium:

It seems that the intention of the council was just for vernacular languages to be used for readings and the propers of the Mass, but definitely not the ordinary. Would you agree with this interpretation?

What I hear you saying is that most of the priests and bishops in the United States who allow vernacular in the OF Masses for parts other than the readings and propers are interpreting the documents incorrectly.

Is that what you are saying?

Keep in mind that most of the priests and bishops have received extensive education, many of them at excellent conservative seminaries, and many have done additional study and work in Rome at the Vatican. Keep in mind also that the Lord Jesus Christ called these men to be priests (and ultimately bishops) and that the Holy Spirit has given them the charisms necessary to succeed in their vocation.

And you think all of these men are wrong and you are right? Am I reading your posts correctly?

 

[YoungTradCath]

What I hear you saying is that most of the priests and bishops in the United States who allow vernacular in the OF Masses for parts other than the readings and propers are interpreting the documents incorrectly.

Is that what you are saying?

Keep in mind that most of the priests and bishops have received extensive education, many of them at excellent conservative seminaries, and many have done additional study and work in Rome at the Vatican. Keep in mind also that the Lord Jesus Christ called these men to be priests (and ultimately bishops) and that the Holy Spirit has given them the charisms necessary to succeed in their vocation.

And you think all of these men are wrong and you are right? Am I reading your posts correctly?

I think you are usually far too defensive about this subject.

 

[Cat]

I think you are usually far too defensive about this subject.

Am I misinterpreting smndtupidisaftr’s posts?

If so, I’m sorry. Please forgive me.

 

[ProVobis]

From Sacrosanctum Concilium:

It seems that the intention of the council was just for vernacular languages to be used for readings and the propers of the Mass, but definitely not the ordinary. Would you agree with this interpretation?

The Latin for part of #2 is haud raro linguae vernaculae usurpatio, literally “not rarely the use of the vernacular language” was translated with a bias to “frequently the use of the mother tongue,” which IMO is not quite the same thing. But whatever, it is clear #1 directed that Latin is to be the norm. Which is pretty much what Trent said. (Trent did not ban the vulgar languages. It said it was not to be used everywhere, thus allowing for some exceptions.)

Your interpretation, however, seems to be a good compromise. .