Novus Ordo Mass

[JNB]

Ah I Shawn McIlhennys page. Filled withe rrors and pride, he even disagreed with Cdl Ratzingers conclusions in Ratzingers book Spirit of the Liturgy. While many who were once associated with the SSPX as McIlhenny once was have very difficult falling outs, and the SSPX is not blameless, the likes of McIlhenny make it into a blood fued by trying to make as many historical distortions as possible.

thistle:

Also you might like to try:

IN DEFENSE OF THE PAULINE MASS

 

[netmilsmom]

JNB:

Again, you are way off in terms of the ages of people who call t hemselves traditionalists, While I do not full subscibe to the rad-trad line, and in fact, I am put off by much of its tactless militancy, those who are traditional Catholics are generally under 50. In fact I would say the group that is smallest in many Traditionalist chapels is the 40-65 age bracket, with thoser under 40 making up the largest group. Dont believe me, go to parishe sthat have the TLM such as St John Cantius in Chicago, go to parishes that bring the current mass to be almost like the TLM such as the Assumption Grotto in Detroit or St. Agnes in St. Paul MN. It will be far more young familes than people who are middle aged.

Amen!
AND, we procreate much more than a progressive NO parish so our masses are filled with families that are either bringing multiple children and/or are still going. We just had a family with seven girls blessed with their first boy!

50s and 60’s! They are the progressives in my area

 

[JNB]

My home parish like yours is ran by Dominicans, and while it is a Novus Ordo done mostly in English, like your parish, it is reverent, with pre 1960 hymns, incense, altar boys only(82 of them in fact for a parish that isint supersized) and no EMHCs and use of the rail, and most importantly, orthodoxy in its preaching.

The result, there are 5 priestly vocations and many female religous vocations(I am not sure of the exact number) from this parish. I went to its midnight mass last week, and what I saw there was a high mass with a packed house, with a large number of young familes and young adults. Both Lux_e_veritas and Netmil(name removed by moderator) attend similar parishes and my guess is both of thair parishes average age is somwhat younger than what a typical suburban parish would be.

arieh0310:

I like the Pauline mass as well, if it is done right. My parish only does the NO mass and of the three Sunday morning masses the 11 am mass is the one I prefer. That mass has incence, Gregorian chant, most of the liturgy including the congregational responses are either said or sung in Latin, communion rail (all masses use that), formal procession, etc.

The NO mass can be done every bit as reverently as a TLM, I think that many traditionalists are simply over reacting to how some parishes celebrate mass in a way totally severed from Tradition.

 

[JNB]

This is the grestest irony. I bet your parish, with no altar girls and almost no use of EMHCs(as you said only on Christmas and Easter), also no doubt produces the highest number of nuns in the entire archdiocese.
netmil(name removed by moderator):

Amen!
AND, we procreate much more than a progressive NO parish so our masses are filled with families that are either bringing multiple children and/or are still going. We just had a family with seven girls blessed with their first boy!

50s and 60’s! They are the progressives in my area

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

JNB:

Again, you are way off in terms of the ages of people who call t hemselves traditionalists, While I do not full subscibe to the rad-trad line, and in fact, I am put off by much of its tactless militancy, those who are traditional Catholics are generally under 50. In fact I would say the group that is smallest in many Traditionalist chapels is the 40-65 age bracket, with thoser under 40 making up the largest group. Dont believe me, go to parishe sthat have the TLM such as St John Cantius in Chicago, go to parishes that bring the current mass to be almost like the TLM such as the Assumption Grotto in Detroit or St. Agnes in St. Paul MN. It will be far more young familes than people who are middle aged.

I can attest to this even from the perspective of a 43 year old cradle catholic who just joined Assumption Grotto in May of this year. One of the lures were the many young people attending the traditional Novus Ordo there. And, they start having families in their early 20’s, if not sooner. There are just loads of families with 7+, and a good many with a dozen or more. I had to chuckle with that family that made the news with their 17th child because one family in my parish had that beat a couple years ago. In fact, I believe child #18 was recently born. I thought it was grandchildren in the family portrait, but it’s all their kids. And, let me tell you there is nothing wrong with this family. I see them laughing and playing together on Sundays as they lurk around the Church. Of the boys not married, they are altar boys. Mom and dad look well adjusted too, like not a worry in the world.

Such traditional parishes carry traditional families. It is not likely you’ll see anyone playing PS/P in a pew during Mass. Chances are they don’t even have Playstations at home.

 

[arieh0310]

JNB:

My home parish like yours is ran by Dominicans, and while it is a Novus Ordo done mostly in English, like your parish, it is reverent, with pre 1960 hymns, incense, altar boys only(82 of them in fact for a parish that isint supersized) and no EMHCs and use of the rail, and most importantly, orthodoxy in its preaching.

Funny, mine is run by the Dominicans too. I also agree with one of your previous quotes about how many of the more traditional Catholics are quite young. Our parish is filled with young people and young families (I am only 28).

 

[thistle]

JNB:

Ah I Shawn McIlhennys page. Filled withe rrors and pride, he even disagreed with Cdl Ratzingers conclusions in Ratzingers book Spirit of the Liturgy. While many who were once associated with the SSPX as McIlhenny once was have very difficult falling outs, and the SSPX is not blameless, the likes of McIlhenny make it into a blood fued by trying to make as many historical distortions as possible.

Thanks. Actually I’ve never heard of him before. I just came across that page doing a quick search.
Is he anti SSPX or anti Pope Benedict?

 

[dumspirospero]

LOL…my dear friend…I wish I could claim credit for that description (“pizza hut churches”), but I am afraid that I must give credit to a favorite author of mine, George Weigel.

Oh is this the truth!!!
[/quote]

 

[the_phoenix]

I love the Latin Mass and sometimes attend the Bishop-approved one downtown, but have recently joined a Novus Ordo - English Language Mass parish. Why the polarization, why the attitude of “it’s gotta be one or the other, us against them, Latin vs. English”? As long as proper reverence is shown, I’ll happily attend Mass in English, Latin, Spanish (I’m a Spanish speaker), even Japanese (I just completed Japanese 101 up at the university) … Or hey, I’m even happily willing to attend Mass in a language where I don’t understand a word of it.

The important thing is the Eucharistic Sacrifice taking place on the altar, which is the same in any language.

As for being resistant to change, no indeed, that doesn’t apply to me. Growing up, I attended the Pauline English-speaking Mass. It was only as an adult that I attended my first Latin Mass. Good thing I’m open to change, because I LOVED the Latin Mass, and am able to appreciate the graces therein … while still being able to appreciate the graces contained in the “New Mass” … which for me personally is actually the “Old Mass” of my childhood!

• good-natured grin *

~~ the phoenix

 

[Sean_O_L]

JNB wrote:
Ah I Shawn McIlhennys page. …
Ah, JNB’s quote: filled with unsubstantiated assertions - he even admitted that
I do not agree with all of the non dogmatic functions of the magesterium, especially when dealing with liturgy,
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=19414 post #1

How about it, JNB! If you are going to demean Shawn McElhinney and his “likes” - please have the goodness to

1. List the alleged errors and “historical distortions”,
2. Provide evidence for the alleged disagreement - and point out why YOU are able to not “agree” with some aspects but McElhinney should be excoriated for similar (as yet unsubstantiated) disagreement?
3. Inasmuch as the following are also included in the despised “likes” – please itemise their “historical distortions:

Mrs Roniel Aledo, USA, wife of Captain Roniel Aledo (USA Army, Ret.) ex SSPX
Tony and Marion Bordignon, N.Z., ex SSPX
Kevin Campbell, USA, ex SSPX
Janice Cummings, USA, First USA nun for the SSPX
Mac de Nie, Holland, ex sedevacantist/SSPX
Mark Downey, USA, ex SSPX
Peter Falco, USA, ex SSPX
Michael Foley, Australia, ex National President The Latin Mass Society of Australia, ex SSPX
Jamie Frater, N.Z., ex Feeneyite and SSPX seminarian
Mary Anne Gomulski, USA, ex Shuckardite/CMRI
Philip Gough, USA, ex SSPX
Bill Grossklas, USA, ex SSPX
Stephen Hand, USA, ex “The Remnant”, now with “TCR News”
Robert Hess, USA, ex sedevacantist editor of St Francis Newsletter
John Loughnan, Australia, ex National Vice-President The Latin Mass Society of Australia, ex SSPX for 23 years.
Norma Loughnan, Australia, ex SSPX.
Stephen Nosco, USA, ex Feeneyite/O.S.J.
Tony Pekolj, Australia, ex SSPX seminarian/Little Pebble adherent
Debbie Pivaraunas, USA, ex CMRI; sister-in-law of Thucite Bp. Mark Pivaraunas
Jim Riihl, USA, ex SSPX/sedevacantist
Dick & Debbie Rust, USA, ex Shuckardite/CMRI
Nicholas Van der Linden, Australia, ex SSPX
Pete Vere, J.C.L., Canada, ex SSPX
Gerard Wilson, Australia, ex SSPX, now Editor of “Judica Mei, Deus” and
Bishop Fernando Rifal and his 26,000 plus laity and priests from Campos.

We are all in the same boat, including former Baptists, Methodists – there has also been a former Satanist who reverted/converted; we all have shed our tears and continue to do penance for our sins, together with Peter.

 

[JNB]

I have read enough of his tirades on his website. One thing for example, he asserts early mass was facing the people, but that flies oin the face of much scholarship, since from the eraly days of the church, the priest led the conregation in prayer towrds the East. On his blog, he comes across as quite arrogant, I remeber once he dismissed the book Spirt of the Liturgy and he implied he was a better liturgical scholar than Ratzinger. Again, I know the SSPX can be less than pastoral, but the manner than I Shawn McIlhenny has acted tells me he is a very bitter man who can not let it go. I just do not have the time to list all the distortions he had on his website.

As for my post, its intrestingthat you dig out a post that is over a year old. As I said then and as I say now, the SSPX is not blameless in how people feel about them, but again, trying to get authentic “scholarship” from someone like I Shawn McIlhenny is like tryinb to get a 4 star meal as MacDonalds.
Sean O L:

JNB wrote:

Ah, JNB’s quote: filled with unsubstantiated assertions - he even admitted that

How about it, JNB! If you are going to demean Shawn McElhinney and his “likes” - please have the goodness to

1. List the alleged errors and “historical distortions”,
2. Provide evidence for the alleged disagreement - and point out why YOU are able to not “agree” with some aspects but McElhinney should be excoriated for similar (as yet unsubstantiated) disagreement?
3. Inasmuch as the following are also included in the despised “likes” – please itemise their “historical distortions:

Mrs Roniel Aledo, USA, wife of Captain Roniel Aledo (USA Army, Ret.) ex SSPX
Tony and Marion Bordignon, N.Z., ex SSPX
Kevin Campbell, USA, ex SSPX
Janice Cummings, USA, First USA nun for the SSPX
Mac de Nie, Holland, ex sedevacantist/SSPX
Mark Downey, USA, ex SSPX
Peter Falco, USA, ex SSPX
Michael Foley, Australia, ex National President The Latin Mass Society of Australia, ex SSPX
Jamie Frater, N.Z., ex Feeneyite and SSPX seminarian
Mary Anne Gomulski, USA, ex Shuckardite/CMRI
Philip Gough, USA, ex SSPX
Bill Grossklas, USA, ex SSPX
Stephen Hand, USA, ex “The Remnant”, now with “TCR News”
Robert Hess, USA, ex sedevacantist editor of St Francis Newsletter
John Loughnan, Australia, ex National Vice-President The Latin Mass Society of Australia, ex SSPX for 23 years.
Norma Loughnan, Australia, ex SSPX.
Stephen Nosco, USA, ex Feeneyite/O.S.J.
Tony Pekolj, Australia, ex SSPX seminarian/Little Pebble adherent
Debbie Pivaraunas, USA, ex CMRI; sister-in-law of Thucite Bp. Mark Pivaraunas
Jim Riihl, USA, ex SSPX/sedevacantist
Dick & Debbie Rust, USA, ex Shuckardite/CMRI
Nicholas Van der Linden, Australia, ex SSPX
Pete Vere, J.C.L., Canada, ex SSPX
Gerard Wilson, Australia, ex SSPX, now Editor of “Judica Mei, Deus” and
Bishop Fernando Rifal and his 26,000 plus laity and priests from Campos.

We are all in the same boat, including former Baptists, Methodists – there has also been a former Satanist who reverted/converted; we all have shed our tears and continue to do penance for our sins, together with Peter.

 

[netmilsmom]

JNB:

This is the grestest irony. I bet your parish, with no altar girls and almost no use of EMHCs(as you said only on Christmas and Easter), also no doubt produces the highest number of nuns in the entire archdiocese.

Actually, I can’t attest to the amount of nuns we get from our parish but we see them, IN HABIT, at our masses and we don’t even have a convent.

 

[netmilsmom]

dumspirospero:

LOL…my dear friend…I wish I could claim credit for that description (“pizza hut churches”), but I am afraid that I must give credit to a favorite author of mine, George Weigel.

It’s great!
In our area, we actually have a parish that looks like it was converted from an old Howard Johnsons hotel.
It may have been, but I’m not kidding!

 

[PreVatII]

dumspirospero:

I agree…lets just think about a few things I can think of off hand that was changed in the Mass, but was not mandated by VII…it is just an invention that Priest and Bishops have just decided to inject.

1)Priest facing the people
2)Removal of all Latin from the Mass
3)Receiving Communion in the hand
4)Standing while receiving Communion
5)Removal of Communion Rails
6)Pizza Hut Churches
7)Stripping of the Altars
8)Destroying the original High Altars and flipping them around
8)Removal of tabernacle from center of Church to some obscure spot (out of sight, out of mind…)
9)Removal of Frescoes, Icons, and Statues from Churches
10)Guitars and Drums replace Angelic Choirs
11)White Bathrobes replace the Cassock and Surplice of the Altar Boys and Alcolytes…oh yeah, and now women are now Altar “servers”
12)Non Ordained Lectors and Readers

Gents…this is just a handful of things that pop in my mind that have evolved into the modern day Mass that was not mandated or even hinted at during Vatican II…that is what Traditionalist such as myself has always had a problem with…I don’t have a problem with VII or the Pauline Mass…what I have a problem with is man made inventions that have improperly found their way into our Churches.

I could not agree more! Truly outstanding post!!!
Semper Fi

 

[willy]

Lauderat Dei!

 

[bear06]

JNB:

I have read enough of his tirades on his website. One thing for example, he asserts early mass was facing the people, but that flies oin the face of much scholarship, since from the eraly days of the church, the priest led the conregation in prayer towrds the East. On his blog, he comes across as quite arrogant, I remeber once he dismissed the book Spirt of the Liturgy and he implied he was a better liturgical scholar than Ratzinger. Again, I know the SSPX can be less than pastoral, but the manner than I Shawn McIlhenny has acted tells me he is a very bitter man who can not let it go. I just do not have the time to list all the distortions he had on his website.

As for my post, its intrestingthat you dig out a post that is over a year old. As I said then and as I say now, the SSPX is not blameless in how people feel about them, but again, trying to get authentic “scholarship” from someone like I Shawn McIlhenny is like tryinb to get a 4 star meal as MacDonalds.

It would seem that while Mr. McIlhenny documents sources, you do not. Gee whiz! All we can see here is conjecture and unsupported claims in your post.

 

[JNB]

Documents sources? Based on Jugmans book on the liturgy that has been called into question in the last few years(based on the factthat Jugman had incomplete scholarship also based too many assumption on what took place in local areas rather than the church at large)?

Mr. McIlhenny again is someone who is bitter, it shows in his work, and it shows in his blog, combine that with his arrogance, and one can see there are many issues taking his source at face value. When he took issue with Cdl. Ratzingers book, Spirit of the Liturgy on mass celebrated Ad Orientem, I knew that McIlhenys conclusion and “research” was quite bad.

bear06:

It would seem that while Mr. McIlhenny documents sources, you do not. Gee whiz! All we can see here is conjecture and unsupported claims in your post.

 

[bear06]

JNB:

Documents sources? Based on Jugmans book on the liturgy that has been called into question in the last few years(based on the factthat Jugman had incomplete scholarship also based too many assumption on what took place in local areas rather than the church at large)?

Mr. McIlhenny again is someone who is bitter, it shows in his work, and it shows in his blog, combine that with his arrogance, and one can see there are many issues taking his source at face value. When he took issue with Cdl. Ratzingers book, Spirit of the Liturgy on mass celebrated Ad Orientem, I knew that McIlhenys conclusion and “research” was quite bad.

OK, I’m not saying Mr. McIlhenny has said or did not say any of the above. I did point out that you have provided no evidence of any of what you have said and have only provided one thing that YOU say he is wrong about. None of us can make the judgment that he is wrong because you have actually provided no evidence that he said it. A link to the lunacy (if any) would be nice. We can not address McIlhenny’s assertations because you have not provided any quotes of them. I’ve seen far to much conjecture, misquoting, etc. to just take things as people say on these loops. This is one of the reasons the rules of the forums are to post links.

 

[JNB]

If you want to see what he has said, google rerum novarum blog, and go though his blog. It was around a year ago, maybe a little bit more that he made his statements about the hsitory of the ad orientem posture. I dont feel like going to his entire blog to get the quote.

As for his evidence, I have read enough of his anti traditionalist tirades to see how he takes too many historical quotes from previous Popes and scholars well out of context, and he makes too much use out of one source, Jungman. Again, dont take this as a blankey defense on the behavior of the SSPX, because it seems the SSPX though its extreme bunker mentality has created many of its own worst enimies, but I absolutely can not defend, and in fact I am quite offended, by most of what Mr McIlhenny writes.

bear06:

OK, I’m not saying Mr. McIlhenny has said or did not say any of the above. I did point out that you have provided no evidence of any of what you have said and have only provided one thing that YOU say he is wrong about. None of us can make the judgment that he is wrong because you have actually provided no evidence that he said it. A link to the lunacy (if any) would be nice. We can not address McIlhenny’s assertations because you have not provided any quotes of them. I’ve seen far to much conjecture, misquoting, etc. to just take things as people say on these loops. This is one of the reasons the rules of the forums are to post links.

 

[bear06]

JNB:

If you want to see what he has said, google rerum novarum blog, and go though his blog. It was around a year ago, maybe a little bit more that he made his statements about the hsitory of the ad orientem posture. I dont feel like going to his entire blog to get the quote.

As for his evidence, I have read enough of his anti traditionalist tirades to see how he takes too many historical quotes from previous Popes and scholars well out of context, and he makes too much use out of one source, Jungman. Again, dont take this as a blankey defense on the behavior of the SSPX, because it seems the SSPX though its extreme bunker mentality has created many of its own worst enimies, but I absolutely can not defend, and in fact I am quite offended, by most of what Mr McIlhenny writes.

I think you are missing the point. All you are doing is making unsubstantiated accusations. What I am trying to say is that if you are going to accuse McIlhenny of something then you should at least provide factual evidence.