Novus Ordo = Why?

  • Thread starter Thread starter ClemtheCatholic
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

ClemtheCatholic

Guest
Simple (and probably a stupid!) question: Why was the new form of the Mass instituted? (Note: Not sure if “instituted” is the correct term…)

I go to the NO form of the Mass but I’m wondering, in the view of so much controversy with the SSPX and things like that, what was the point of instituting the Novus Ordo Mass? What was wrong with the Extraordinary form?

Hope you can help me out!
God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic
 
ClemtheCatholic said:
Simple (and probably a stupid!) question: Why was the new form of the Mass instituted? (Note: Not sure if “instituted” is the correct term…)

I go to the NO form of the Mass but I’m wondering, in the view of so much controversy with the SSPX and things like that, what was the point of instituting the Novus Ordo Mass? What was wrong with the Extraordinary form?

Hope you can help me out!
God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic
Click to expand...
I don’t think I have a satisfactory answer for your main question, but I think it must be good to remember that the SSPX didn’t even exist until after the Mass of Paul VI was promulgated (I believe that’s the word you’re looking for) in 1969. This controversy did not exist until after SSPX was formed, so it obviously was not a consideration before promulgation. However, it is true that such a controversy should have been anticipated.

Also, one must not confuse the current state of the OF Mass with what Pope Paul VI intended when he promulgated it in 1969. A lot of changes have occurred despite not being prescribed by the 1970 Missal, and you can’t blame the OF (or the Pope) for it.

Whatever it is, I am sure the good Pope had good reason for promulgating the new Mass. I’ll leave it to the experts to answer the rest. 🙂
 
The Church leaders wanted to inject new life into the liturgy since many Catholics took a legalistic view of sacraments (jump through the hoops, stay in a state of grace, and you are OK). Devotions became very popular and started to overshadow the Mass, where Fr. Jones did his thing at the altar while we all sat around and prayed our rosaries waiting for communion. While the goals were noble, the result has been debatable. Some are happy, some think the reforms went too far, some think the reforms didn’t go far enough.

That having been said, I’ve just finished a book recommended by Dom Alcuin Reid (who, incidentally, had the forward to one of his books written by J. Card. Ratzinger) that sheds a lot of light onto why the Consilium and Pope Paul VI wanted to change the Mass. Though the work is polemical and written by a sedevacantist, Dom Alcuin Reid says that it is an important work that needs to be read and addressed. One should read the work in light of the author’s erroneous beliefs and take his extreme conclusions about invalidity with a grain of salt. In fact, if you are not sure of the validity of the New Mass, I recommend against reading this book until you’ve listened to these two talks by Mr. Michael Davies refuting sedevacantism:

keepthefaith.org/images/MP3_images/2860D.jpg

keepthefaith.org/images/MP3_images/2281D.jpg
 
Windmill said:
The Church leaders wanted to inject new life into the liturgy since many Catholics took a legalistic view of sacraments (jump through the hoops, stay in a state of grace, and you are OK). Devotions became very popular and started to overshadow the Mass, where Fr. Jones did his thing at the altar while we all sat around and prayed our rosaries waiting for communion. While the goals were noble, the result has been debatable. Some are happy, some think the reforms went too far, some think the reforms didn’t go far enough.

That having been said, I’ve just finished a book recommended by Dom Alcuin Reid (who, incidentally, had the forward to one of his books written by J. Card. Ratzinger) that sheds a lot of light onto why the Consilium and Pope Paul VI wanted to change the Mass. Though the work is polemical and written by a sedevacantist, Dom Alcuin Reid says that it is an important work that needs to be read and addressed. One should read the work in light of the author’s erroneous beliefs and take his extreme conclusions about invalidity with a grain of salt. In fact, if you are not sure of the validity of the New Mass, I recommend against reading this book until you’ve listened to these two talks by Mr. Michael Davies refuting sedevacantism:

keepthefaith.org/images/MP3_images/2860D.jpg

keepthefaith.org/images/MP3_images/2281D.jpg
Click to expand...
excerpts from the book you recommended
“the Mass of Paul VI destroys Catholic doctrine in the minds of the faithful and in particular, Catholic doctrine concerning the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the priesthood and the real presence,” “permits or prescribes grave irreverence.” “a Catholic may not merely prefer the old rite to the new; he must also reject the new rite in its entirety. The faith obliges him to do so.”
Click to expand...
this is sedevacantist garbage.
 
Hi there. Hope everyone is enjoying a blessed Christmas Season and a wonderful New Year.😃
In answer to this question, I recommend the book Catholic Matters: Confusion, Controversy and the Splendor of Truth by Father Richard John Neuhaus.This is one of my all-time favourite books. The writing is profound, eloquent, theologically precise- some passages are like lectio divina. Father Neuhaus is also charming, appropriately funny, and writes about his own conversion experience. He addresses Vatican II and the Novus Ordo as one faithful to it, but also recognizing what was before and is now in a way I’d never known before. He writes about Catholicism in the United States like nobody’s business. This could be your January book to start off a great New Year and grow in your spiritual life. Hmmmm… I just may read this a second time…:cool:
 
Filii_Dei said:
I don’t think I have a satisfactory answer for your main question, but I think it must be good to remember that the SSPX didn’t even exist until after the Mass of Paul VI was promulgated (I believe that’s the word you’re looking for) in 1969. This controversy did not exist until after SSPX was formed, so it obviously was not a consideration before promulgation. However, it is true that such a controversy should have been anticipated.

Also, one must not confuse the current state of the OF Mass with what Pope Paul VI intended when he promulgated it in 1969. A lot of changes have occurred despite not being prescribed by the 1970 Missal, and you can’t blame the OF (or the Pope) for it.

Whatever it is, I am sure the good Pope had good reason for promulgating the new Mass. I’ll leave it to the experts to answer the rest. 🙂
Click to expand...
I hear that comment a lot. That the Council did not intend to create the Novus Ordo and that you can’t “blame” the Pope for it. The former is true , but not the latter. The Council Fathers did not really know that the Novus Ordo of today was what they voted for when the Mass was to be “revised”; However, Pope Paul the VI did read and approve the Novus Ordo, so you can “blame” the then Holy Father, even though the Council did not intent the Mass that the Holy Father, Pope paul VI, approved and promulgated.
Furthermore, what we have today, the New Rite, with all the radical changes and departures from Catholic tradition, such as the elimination of the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, Mass facing the people, the virtual elimination of kneeling by the priest and people, the elimination of copious signs of adoration and veneration (bows at the name of Christ and Mary for example), altar girls,and the rewriting of the text of the Mass itself for example, just to name a few, all have occurred with the full knowledge of and **approval **of Pope Paul VI and all the other Popes that followed him… So, yes you can “blame the Pope”.
Don’t get me wrong, the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, we must be in union with him, to be in the Church, but let’s not sugar coat anything. History is, What it is.
 
MODERATOR NOTICE

Posts hostile to either form of the mass, EF or OF, hostile to the Holy Father or hostile toward Vatican II will get you banned, without warning.

We are here to tell people what the Church says, not what we want them to hear.
 
Jennifoo said:
Hi there. Hope everyone is enjoying a blessed Christmas Season and a wonderful New Year.😃
In answer to this question, I recommend the book Catholic Matters: Confusion, Controversy and the Splendor of Truth by Father Richard John Neuhaus.This is one of my all-time favourite books. The writing is profound, eloquent, theologically precise- some passages are like lectio divina. Father Neuhaus is also charming, appropriately funny, and writes about his own conversion experience. He addresses Vatican II and the Novus Ordo as one faithful to it, but also recognizing what was before and is now in a way I’d never known before. He writes about Catholicism in the United States like nobody’s business. This could be your January book to start off a great New Year and grow in your spiritual life. Hmmmm… I just may read this a second time…:cool:
Click to expand...
Thank you! I shall certainly try to purchase this book! 🙂
 
It is an axiom that God always provides the prescription before the illness sets-in. Modern man loves contraception more than anything else. And, so to communicate with modern man, God must make Himself less obvious, or as Dr. Kreeft says, more muted and less apparently beautiful to a race of men who admire ugliness.

How’s that for a syllogism?
 
How many here watched the Christmas Vigil Mass celebrated by our Pope this year? For those who missed it, it was an Ordinary Form Mass, celebrated in Latin, with the only Italian occurring during the readings and the homily. It was absolutely reverent, inspiring, and gorgeous, imho. In fact one of the announcements last night at Mass- an English OF Mass held at our most traditional diocesan church- was that the regularly scheduled EF Mass this morning would actually be an OF Latin Mass. I don’t imagine they are planning to replace the EF Mass in that time slot, but I’m wondering if it might be a trial to see how the congregation takes to the OF Latin Mass. Unfortunately I can’t attend because of gas and because I told the choir director at my local parish I’d sing with them.

If this thread continues I’ll come back with an update on the OF Latin Mass in the other parish. I certainly hope they start offering one regularly, not in replacement of but in addition to the EF Mass. I should mention that at that parish the priest faces ad orientem, communion is always kneeling at the rail, there are confessions before every single regularly scheduled Mass, every day of the week, women wear head scarves, etc. etc. and the place is generally packed. So an additional OF Mass in Latin might do well, and provide another option and a way to ease folks into an appreciation of the beautiful Latin language which our fantastic Pope is determined to rekindle among the faithful.
 
Faithdancer said:
How many here watched the Christmas Vigil Mass celebrated by our Pope this year? For those who missed it, it was an Ordinary Form Mass, celebrated in Latin, with the only Italian occurring during the readings and the homily. It was absolutely reverent, inspiring, and gorgeous, imho. In fact one of the announcements last night at Mass- an English OF Mass held at our most traditional diocesan church- was that the regularly scheduled EF Mass this morning would actually be an OF Latin Mass. I don’t imagine they are planning to replace the EF Mass in that time slot, but I’m wondering if it might be a trial to see how the congregation takes to the OF Latin Mass. Unfortunately I can’t attend because of gas and because I told the choir director at my local parish I’d sing with them.

If this thread continues I’ll come back with an update on the OF Latin Mass in the other parish. I certainly hope they start offering one regularly, not in replacement of but in addition to the EF Mass. I should mention that at that parish the priest faces ad orientem, communion is always kneeling at the rail, there are confessions before every single regularly scheduled Mass, every day of the week, women wear head scarves, etc. etc. and the place is generally packed. So an additional OF Mass in Latin might do well, and provide another option and a way to ease folks into an appreciation of the beautiful Latin language which our fantastic Pope is determined to rekindle among the faithful.
Click to expand...
While you may like what you like in a mass, there is nothing wrong in an English OF mass with the priest facing the people (and the centre altar), some people receiving Holy Communion standing and on the hand, women not covering their heads. That is the mass I attend and the Church is packed at every mass. We have regular confession times too but then we have priests to assist our parish priest.
 
Faithdancer said:
How many here watched the Christmas Vigil Mass celebrated by our Pope this year? For those who missed it, it was an Ordinary Form Mass, celebrated in Latin, with the only Italian occurring during the readings and the homily. It was absolutely reverent, inspiring, and gorgeous, imho. In fact one of the announcements last night at Mass- an English OF Mass held at our most traditional diocesan church- was that the regularly scheduled EF Mass this morning would actually be an OF Latin Mass. I don’t imagine they are planning to replace the EF Mass in that time slot, but I’m wondering if it might be a trial to see how the congregation takes to the OF Latin Mass. Unfortunately I can’t attend because of gas and because I told the choir director at my local parish I’d sing with them.

If this thread continues I’ll come back with an update on the OF Latin Mass in the other parish. I certainly hope they start offering one regularly, not in replacement of but in addition to the EF Mass. I should mention that at that parish the priest faces ad orientem, communion is always kneeling at the rail, there are confessions before every single regularly scheduled Mass, every day of the week, women wear head scarves, etc. etc. and the place is generally packed. So an additional OF Mass in Latin might do well, and provide another option and a way to ease folks into an appreciation of the beautiful Latin language which our fantastic Pope is determined to rekindle among the faithful.
Click to expand...
St. John Cantius has two EF’s and a Latin OF on Sunday morning. The Latin OF usually outdraws both EF’s. It could be the time (11am while the EFs are 7:30am and 12:30pm) but I doubt it. The parish offers Latin and Greek classes on Sunday mornings, btw.
 
Sorry, I’m a little confused!! :confused:

NO = Novus Ordo

EF = Extraordinary Form

OF = ??

Is OF the Ordinary Form and thus the same as the Novus Ordo? lol, very confused here!!😊
 
Faithdancer said:
How many here watched the Christmas Vigil Mass celebrated by our Pope this year? For those who missed it, it was an Ordinary Form Mass, celebrated in Latin, with the only Italian occurring during the readings and the homily. It was absolutely reverent, inspiring, and gorgeous, imho.
Click to expand...
In addition to the Gregorian (Tridintine) Mass, we are blessed at my home Parish to have the OF (Pauline) Mass said every Wednesday AM. Our Midnight Mass was an OF High Mass and it was awesome, as always. Glad you mentioned this.
 
Susan Benofy wrote for Adoremus about what we know today as the OF and why it changed. Specifically, she asks why the Mass as we know doesn’t seem to follow the documents of Vatican II. This quote gets right to the issue.
If we compare the “New Mass” of November 29, 1964 with Sacrosanctum Concilium and its two implementing documents, Sacram Liturgiam and Inter Oecumenici, on the one hand, and with the “Parish Worship Program” on the other, one thing becomes overwhelmingly clear. The “New Mass” introduced on that day follows the “Parish Worship Program” almost to the letter, while neglecting several explicit provisions of the former. On the day the Mass changed it was not the decrees of the Council but the desires of the liturgy commentators that were implemented.
Click to expand...
Emphasis mine.

You can read the two-part series here: adoremus.org/0210Benofy.html
 
smndtupidisaftr said:
Susan Benofy wrote for Adoremus about what we know today as the OF and why it changed. Specifically, she asks why the Mass as we know doesn’t seem to follow the documents of Vatican II. This quote gets right to the issue.

Emphasis mine.

You can read the two-part series here: adoremus.org/0210Benofy.html
Click to expand...
Yes, I’ve read about that document before. It is almost universally decried as quite nefarious.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top