Novus Ordo

[curlycool89]

Hello, I am a member of the SSPX and I would not reccommend going to the Novus Ordo mass. There have been too many changes (as well as individual changes that the priest might have made on his own) to cause doubt as to the validity of the mass.

And that’s promoting a view that is at least borderline heretical and certainly an attitude that is schismatic.

The words of consecration in the Tridentine Mass contains “mystérium fidei” ,the norvus ordo does not! It has nothing to do with English.

I can’t see why “Mystery of Faith” got incorporated into the consecration. There’s nothing biblically in either the Matthew-Mark or Paul-Luke formulation (going by Pope Benedict’s analysis in Jesus of Nazaret: Holy Week) of the institution of the Eucharist that suggests that it is a “Mystery of Faith” (by Jesus’ own words) or that it needs to be included for a valid consecration.

If you go to Novus Ordo please do not receive the body of Jesus in your hands!

Not a requirement, nor can you suggest any authoritative reason why he can not.

Valid means that bread and vine change to the body and blood of Jesus. The SSPX recognize that the Novus Ordo is valid. A schismatic sect can also make a valid mass if the priest had a valid ordination. The problem for the SSPX is, that the Norvus Ordo contains lots of thinks, that has been seen as sacrilegious in the past.

And they are just plain wrong on that.

 

[OraLabora]

Please don’t take the bait folks

 

[ProVobis]

The words of consecration were never changed. There was, for a while, a very imperfect english translation, but this has since been remedied.

The Spanish Mass has not been “remedied” and it is valid.

 

[TimothyH]

Hello, I am a member of the SSPX and I would not reccommend going to the Novus Ordo mass. There have been too many changes (as well as individual changes that the priest might have made on his own) to cause doubt as to the validity of the mass. They changed the words of concecration which is a BIG deal. There also may be lay people handling the host, cleaning the sacred vessels, immodesty in dress, innappropriate music, etc. which can all lead to the loss of faith through indifference.

I would never say, and cannot say with any authority, that “this mass” or “that mass” is invalid, but the doubts are too many and the offense to God is too real to attend the Novus Ordo. I moved my family to a town with a traditional mass, and I can see everyday the fruits of doing so.

God bless on your journey!

I hope God never lets the SSPX be stained by the presence of a true sinner like me.

-Tim-

 

[Andre1000]

mystérium fidei or in English " the mystery if faith is in the Novus Ordo as well. Your statement is frnakly just false. from the USCCB WEB SITE of the 3rd translation of the Roman Missal

“TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT,
FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD,
THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT,
WHICH WILL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY
FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.
DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.
He shows the chalice to the people, places it on the corporal, and genuflects in adoration.
6. Then he says:
The mystery of faith.
And the people continue, acclaiming:
We proclaim your Death, O Lord,
and profess your Resurrection
until you come again.
Or:
When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup,
we proclaim your Death, O Lord,
until you come again.
Or:
Save us, Savior of the world,
for by your Cross and Resurrection
you have set us free.”

Even before the new translation it was there but the priest would say Let us proclaim the mystery of faith instead of just The Mystery of Faith.

If you are going to try and degraded the Mass of Pope Paul the VI at least be correct.

I did not say that mystérium fidei is not in the Novus Ordo, I said that it is not inside the words of consecration.

 

[malphono]

The Spanish Mass has not been “remedied” and it is valid.

Was there ever the same issue with “pro multis” in Spanish as there was in ICEL English? I thought that our old friend Benictgal said no a while back, but I could be wrong.

 

[thewanderer]

The Spanish Mass has not been “remedied” and it is valid.

I never meant to imply that it wasnt, or that the English OF wasn’t valid before the newest translation remedies. I was just pointing it out to help the OP get over any scrupulous reasons which might be holding him/her back from fulfilling his/her sunday Obligation to attend a valid Catholic Mass.

 

[thewanderer]

Not to worry. Some days are just worse than others.

While the Institution Narratives used in the various Anaphorae in the Eastern and Oriental Churches do differ somewhat from that of the Roman Canon, all are similar. And all are easily recognizable for what they are.

The one Anaphora that lacks an Institution Narrative is the Anaphora of Ss Addai & Mari, as commonly used by the Assyrian Church of the East (not in communion with Rome). The Chaldean Church (which is in communion with Rome) uses the same Anaphora but with the inclusion of an Institution Narrative.

Thanks again! I always like to learn more about the Eastern Rites.

 

[clem456]

Please don’t take the bait folks

That is a fine and proper sentiment in many circumstances. However this is the most popular Catholic website in the world and many look here for good information and then recieve ideas like are presented in this thread. They need to be rebutted even if the intent of the OP is to bait. This probably belongs in a separate thread, but one of the biggest problems we have in catechesis and evangelization is the mis-representation of Catholic Tradition as externally form-centered. This turns many people off who come to believe that postures and observances are the complete substance of Catholicism.

 

[ProVobis]

Was there ever the same issue with “pro multis” in Spanish as there was in ICEL English? I thought that our old friend Benictgal said no a while back, but I could be wrong.

It sure seems that a lot of the Spanish was translated from the ICEL 60’s language. The words that you refer to are still “por vosotros y por todos los hombres” (for you [plural] and for all men). At least the closest parish to me (1/2 mile away) says this clear as day.

 

[ProVobis]

I never meant to imply that it wasnt, or that the English OF wasn’t valid before the newest translation remedies. I was just pointing it out to help the OP get over any scrupulous reasons which might be holding him/her back from fulfilling his/her sunday Obligation to attend a valid Catholic Mass.

De Defectibus seems to be quite generous in defining what constitutes a valid Mass. And only ten years ago the Vatican confirmed validity of a Rite which doesn’t even have the words of consecration.

 

[Andre1000]

Not a requirement, nor can you suggest any authoritative reason why he can not.

The pope gave a good sign by forbidding “communion the hand” in the Vatican.
Also:
Cardinal Llovera, Prefect for the Vatican’s Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments, 2008
“What does it mean to receive Communion in the mouth? What does it mean to kneel before the Most Holy Sacrament? What does it mean to kneel during the Consecration at Mass? It means adoration, it means recognizing the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist; it means respect and an attitude of faith of a man who prostrates before God because he knows that everything comes from Him… That is why it is not the same to place the host in the hand, and to receive Communion in any fashion; it is not the same to receive Communion kneeling or standing up, because all of these signs indicate a profound meaning.”

Pope Benedict XVI (Joseph, Cardinal Ratzinger) ‘The Spirit of the Liturgy’ (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 2000)
“It may well be that kneeling is alien to modern culture - insofar as it is a culture, for this culture has turned away from the faith and no longer knows the One before whom kneeling is the right, indeed the intrinsically necessary gesture. The man who learns to believe learns also to kneel, and a faith or a liturgy no longer familiar with kneeling would be sick at the core. Where it has been lost, kneeling must be rediscovered, so that, in our prayer, we remain in fellowship with the apostles and martyrs, in fellowship with the whole cosmos, indeed in union with Jesus Christ Himself.”

The Council of Trent, 1545-1565
“The fact that only the priest gives Holy Communion with his consecrated hands is an Apostolic Tradition.”

 

[malphono]

De Defectibus seems to be quite generous in defining what constitutes a valid Mass.

De Defectibus really concerned the Roman Mass. It was never included in any Eastern/Oriental missal.

And only ten years ago the Vatican confirmed validity of a Rite which doesn’t even have the words of consecration.

The Anaphora of Ss Addai & Mari lacks an explicit Institution Narrative in pretty much the same way as the Roman Canon lacks an explicit epiklesis. But of course the Roman Canon contains an implicit epiklesis, just as the Anaphora of Ss Addai & Mari contains an implicit Institution.

 

[Boulder257]

If you go to Novus Ordo please do not receive the body of Jesus in your hands!

I’m confused…what reason do you have for providing such a definitive directive?

 

[Michael_Francis]

***Closed pending Review by Moderator Thomas Casey.

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[Thomas_Casey]

The thread will remain closed. Posters are warned not to hand down their opinions as truth.

Posters may never discourage anyone from making use of what the Church allows. This is a Catholic apostolate, not a personal one for each poster to hand down his private set of canons. Please be respectful of what the Church allows. You don’t have to make us of it, but you cannot discourage it.

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