Now that gay marriage is a decided issue in the USA, can the Catholic Church go back to preaching the Gospel now?

[edwest2]

pastormacsponderings.wordpress.com/2013/06/27/pondering-my-reactions-to-scotus-rulings-on-gay-marriage/

Now that gay marriage is almost fully decided in the USA, can the Catholic Church now stop attempting to meddle politically in this issue?

Can Catholics now realize that:

1. The way Catholics have dealt with the gay community has been incorrect, hateful, and bigoted, and God is telling us to rethink how we engage with gays,
2. Though Christians should not be gay, it is still biologically normal to be gay and impossible to convert one out of being gay (Exodus Int’l shutdown).
3. Extending marriage rights to gays does not affect straight people,
4. It ensures that the children of gays are legally and equally protected,
5. It ensures that surviving gay spouses are equally protected,
6. Gays are indeed capable of lasting, committed relationships, and straights are capable of swinging and depravity
7. It is futile to legislate morality,
8. If we legislate morality it leads to bad precedent and Muslims demanding sharia in the USA.
9. A secular government is not obligated to follow the Bible,
10. Ironically, although Protestant churches allow for one to vote his conscience, Protestants are more likely to oppose gay rights than Catholics. Could it be because Protestant churches actually preach the Gospel and teach the Bible to members of all ages? Could it be because Protestant churches don’t push political views down one’s throats?
11. The Church needs to change to survive another generation, and convert modern people?

Can the Catholics now give up this political fight, now that the law is decided (much like no-fault divorce laws have been decided)?

Can we go back to preaching the Gospel now? Isn’t Gospel preaching more important than politics?

Here is an excerpt from the above article that may give us clues on what to do from now on:

I hope we realize that the Rainbow Rulings are God’s call for Christians to rethink how we engage with gays.

You can’t tell the Church how to think.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/03/cardinal-timothy-dolan-catholic-churchs-nature-means-it-will-be-out-of-touch-sometimes/

“…we’re not anti-anybody.” Cardinal Dolan

Peace,
Ed

 

[CB_Catholic]

It seems that you, and many other Catholics/Christians just don’t realize that what YOU believe God does or has done, or believes or teaches or says, …is just your belief! It is NOT fact in any way. Therefore, what people of any other religion, or atheists believe, is just as valid as what ALL Christians believe…Your point of view is just one BELIEF, and no more valid or fact than any other beliefs.

No, my dear, we believe it is fact, and no more will be discussed with you about this from me. Save your breath. You are on a Catholic forum.

 

[tuscany]

**Genesis

21So the LORD God cast a deep sleep on the man, and while he was asleep, he took out one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh.

22The LORD God then built the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman. When he brought her to the man,

23the man said:

“This one, at last, is bone of my bones

and flesh of my flesh;

This one shall be called ‘woman,’

for out of man this one has been taken.”*

24m That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body.* **

One MAN and one WOMAN = marriage. We didn’t invent this, God did. If you don’t like the way HE set it up, argue with Him, not us.

 

[StudentMI]

“…we’re not anti-anybody.” Cardinal Dolan

When somebody comes to me, as people often do, and say, “I must tell you, I am a homosexual,” or “I am gay,” I say “Well, thanks for your confidence. Nice to meet you, sit down, you’re welcome here, but as a matter of fact, no you’re not. You happen to be John Jones, who is a child of God and redeemed by the blood of his only begotten Son, destined to spend eternity with him. When God looks at you, he sees a work of art. That’s who you are. You happen to be sexually attracted to men, but that doesn’t define who you are.” Now, I happen to think that’s rather liberating, it’s ennobling, but our culture doesn’t see that. There’s the great challenge, to make people see that we are not our sexual urges.

From the book A People of Hope, a collection of interviews with Cardinal Dolan.

 

[Michael57]

As a criminal lawyer, I can tell you that…

 

[St_Francis]

What I meant was, since you are not Catholic, what is the source of your concern about what the *Catholic *Church is teaching?

. Because the gay community is convinced that Christian churches, including the CC, hate them.

This is because they have been told that anyone who disagrees with the notion that homosexuals should be able to do whatever they want hates them. Thus, anytime someone mentions God’s actual will wrt homosexual activity, they believe that this is an expression of hate.

Why would gays convert if they honestly believe Jesus hates them?

What is the point if converting if one plans to continue to sin?

Because what the Catholic Church does today is anachronistic and does not work in modern society.

We believe that truth is timeless, there is not one truth for yesterday and a different truth for today. The fact that today’s society is out of step with God’s truth does not mean that the Church should change Her teaching to be in step with society, it means that if the society wants to be in tune with the truth, it must change.

But really, what does it matter to a non-Catholic what the Church teaches? Why it is that the Church’s teaching that homosexual activity, along with any sexual activity designed to frustrate the procreative end of that activity, bothers people who do not pay any attention to Church teachings?

 

[edwest2]

http://chirho.me/memes/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/250617_158293930987024_1619207592_n.jpg

SOULS are at stake!

Amen.

Ed

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Let’s hear what Jesus had to say about marriage:

Matthew 19:

Some Pharisees approached him, and tested him,* saying, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?”**(“http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/19/#48019004-b”) He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.” They said to him, “Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss [her]?” 8He said to them, “Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. I say to you,* whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.” 10[His] disciples said to him, “If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” >11He answered, “Not all can accept [this] word,but only those to whom that is granted. 12Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.”

---

Notice that Jesus does not say,

God created male and male or ‘female and female’. God created two sexes, male AND female.

Notice that He says that a marriage involves a MAN and a WOMAN who JOIN TOGETHER. And that this is not something rooted in human SOCIETY but is instituted by GOD.

Jesus is not noted for kowtowing to 'society rules". IF there were any question of marriage being simply for 'two people, any two people, who ‘LOVE’ each other", don’t you think Jesus would have said so? That instead of saying “male and female” Jesus might have addressed the subject of 'people in love"? It’s not as though homosexual behavior was unknown.

So what would JESUS do? We have a crystal clear example of HIS OWN WORDS telling us what HE would do.

Sadly, some in society think they are smarter than Jesus. More compassionate than Jesus. More loving than Jesus. They ignore His words and try to say that since He never actually said, in King Jamesian English, “Thou shalt not have homosexual marriage”, that obviously it means that He’s perfectly OK with homosexual marriage.

May God have mercy on us. We have spent more than 40 years murdering children in the womb, engaging in all sorts of vicious and perverted behaviors, and now we’re trying to claim the perversion is the actual virtue, and that the virtue is a perversion.

Talk about ‘itching ears’ refusing to hear the truth. . . so very sad.

 

[edwest2]

No man is perfect, no not one. And we are all at risk.

biblehub.com/ezekiel/33-8.htm

Peace,
Ed

 

[chero23]

Because even Catholics admit that catechesis is poor in the CC. Because I observe Catholics caring more about marching against abortion than teaching people about the Bible and evangelizing to others. Look at the difference in the amount poured into evangelism and teaching between Catholics and Protestants.

Look at the “Hispanic Reformation” (the fact that Hispanics are turning Protestant in the USA, and I can attest to this).

Look at the breakdown of Catholicism in Ireland, Poland, and the Philippines.

Look at how Protestants are picking up the slack worldwide to re-convert the world.

Look at the fact that people feel they are experiencing God for the first time due to Protestant churches, whereas they felt Catholicism was all about rote tradition, ritual, cultural events, and saints.

Good. Now let’s show love to them, treat them as equals, and grant them rights to marriage. And continue to preach the Gospel to them.

Because the gay community is convinced that Christian churches, including the CC, hate them. Why would gays convert if they honestly believe Jesus hates them?

Because what the Catholic Church does today is anachronistic and does not work in modern society.

It is an inevitably losing battle around the world. The trend is to allowing gay marriages and treating gay couples as equally as straight couples.

The breakdown of marriage is NOT due to contraception or no-fault divorce. Rather, it is the fact that it is now possible to prosper economically as a single person today, when in the past, it was not.

The breakdown is entirely because there is no longer any economic incentive to marry.

You speak that Catholicism has been so much against gays. So if that is the case why did god destroy sodom and Gomorrah? Why is it that exodus and Deuteronomy we see that having relations between same sex is seen as something with so much immorality.?

You speak about the Hispanic Protestant reformation in America. I’m Hispanic, and I know why. Bc Hispanics come from Latin America and forget what their ancestors believed in. They come here and forget about their history, their culture and their faith. Also, because their ignorant about the truth. What the Catholic Church has thought has been the same our ancestors believed in. They believed without ever have had read the bible. Their faith was true. Today of this so, reformation you talk about is splitting families. People think that they can be saved, how ironic is that, as Christianity did not believe in that until Martin Luther came. Protestants also believe in bible alone, their 44,999 Christian denominations saying the same thing, bible only, but they can’t agree on anything. I’m guessing that’s what Jesus and Paul meant when they that god is just 1 body.

 

[edwest2]

Hmmm… Then there’s no economic incentive for gays to be married either.

Peace,
Ed

 

[kathyhumanist]

The Church has been nothing but compassionate to those with SSA, but it’s not loving your neighbor to just stand by quietly, nodding your head in approval as they hurt themselves. Jesus told Mary Magdalene “Go and sin no more.” He was loving to sinners, but didn’t approve of their sin, nor encourage them in it.

What makes you think that you personally, know what God wanted or said or meant? What makes you think that Jesus would not love, and accept homosexuals unconditionally just like he did the lepers and everyone else?

I just don’t get it. WHO are gay people hurting by getting married? They are not hurting ANYONE! They are not affecting anyone else’s marriage, they are not affecting society in any way. There have been homosexuals as long as there have been people, and the fact that they are just now being recognized, does not mean ONE THING as far as them negatively impacting other people’s marriages, OR society.

 

[ccmnxc]

Now that gay marriage is almost fully decided in the USA, can the Catholic Church now stop attempting to meddle politically in this issue?

I must have missed something. When was gay marriage almost fully decided. The court gave the power to the states to decide marriage. It did not legalize gay marriage throughout the country.

Can Catholics now realize that:

1. The way Catholics have dealt with the gay community has been incorrect, hateful, and bigoted, and God is telling us to rethink how we engage with gays,

While some instances may have been these (though by no means all), I would challenge your generalization. Some evidence for the above, perhaps?

1. Though Christians should not be gay, it is still biologically normal to be gay and impossible to convert one out of being gay (Exodus Int’l shutdown).

Um. First, it has not been proven to be a biological connection (perhaps environmental). Two, how do you define “normal?” It is uncommon and not exactly conducive to the reproduction of our species. As for your last point, I can’t really comment, though there are success stories. I don’t know the overall effect, though, so I will leave it at that.

1. Extending marriage rights to gays does not affect straight people,

Except their businesses, consciences, straight children, etc.

1. It ensures that the children of gays are legally and equally protected,

This already assumes that it is good for homosexuals to parent children. This is not an axiom that we accept.

1. It ensures that surviving gay spouses are equally protected,

This is a bit ambiguous. Could you please clarify?

1. Gays are indeed capable of lasting, committed relationships, and straights are capable of swinging and depravity

Sure, it’s just not exactly the trend.

1. It is futile to legislate morality,

I forgot. The laws against murder are only around for economic reasons.

1. If we legislate morality it leads to bad precedent and Muslims demanding sharia in the USA.

Slippery slope fallacy.

1. A secular government is not obligated to follow the Bible,

On one hand, I agree. On the other hand, I do not think God would really accept this as much of an excuse.

1. Ironically, although Protestant churches allow for one to vote his conscience, Protestants are more likely to oppose gay rights than Catholics. Could it be because Protestant churches actually preach the Gospel and teach the Bible to members of all ages?

Not sure what you are trying to get across from this. The Church gets its teaching from the Bible anyways, so I don’t get what you are saying.

Could it be because Protestant churches don’t push political views down one’s throats?

I’d guess plenty of people living in the Bible Belt disagree. Still, I fail to see the correlation.

1. The Church needs to change to survive another generation, and convert modern people?

If the gates of Hell shall not prevail, then this is false. Furthermore, changing our teaching pretty much invalidates it. If it is wrong, we will continue to oppose it, despite how people may feel.

 

[ccmnxc]

Can the Catholics now give up this political fight, now that the law is decided (much like no-fault divorce laws have been decided)?

Can we go back to preaching the Gospel now? Isn’t Gospel preaching more important than politics?

We do not live in a bubble. Both the Gospel and politics have great impacts on people. You cannot separate one from the other. It also goes the other way. How about the government stop making political issues out of religious issues. No? Then why the double-standard?
Here is an excerpt from the above article that may give us clues on what to do from now on:

Quote:

1. We are going to love our wives and our children and instead of defending marriage with our anger we are going to advance it by taking it seriously enough to model and live. We are going to stop worrying about the word, “marriage” and worry about the reality of it in our own families and lives. We are going to stop insisting other people build the culture we are called to build with pillars we are called as a church to build with. We will stand firm on the sanctity of marriage by keeping it sacred, not by expecting citizens of this world to agree with citizens of another.

1. We are going to love those who disagree with us. We are going to remember that none of us reaches the glory of God apart from the Grace of Christ. We are going to stop declaring that a sin which focuses on worldly love is more egregious than the million sins we sometimes let slide which don’t even pretend to an aspect of love; sins like slander and gossip and lying or, in extreme cases even violence. We are also going to love them by clear communication of the Gospel in word and deed, clarifying that all sin is big and God’s Grace is bigger.

1. We are going to love our Lord and trust Him when He says that the church is not called to rule through power of law or politics, but to serve through love and grace. We are going to remember (again) that Christ and the church has never before required the agreement of a culture (politically, legislatively or artistically) before we love those in it. We are going to remember that as we incarnate Christ’s life in us to others we can change lives. We are going to remember that laws which allow do not require and laws which forbid, do not overrule passions which control. We are going to remember that Christ alone brings freedom from sin and freedom to love.

Some parts I agree with. Other parts encourage apathy, which is the opposite of love.

I hope we realize that the Rainbow Rulings are God’s call for Christians to rethink how we engage with gays.

I’ve heard quite a few people claim to know the mind of God. Interesting how they all have conflicting messages.

 

[Michael57]

It seems that you, and many other Catholics/Christians just don’t realize that what YOU believe God does or has done, or believes or teaches or says, …is just your belief! It is NOT fact in any way. Therefore, what people of any other religion, or atheists believe, is just as valid as what ALL Christians believe…Your point of view is just one BELIEF, and no more valid or fact than any other beliefs.

Moral relativism is unconvincing. Truth is objective. Truth is not negotiable.

My belief in a Risen Savior is a FACT. His existence is also a historic fact. What He says about Himself is also factual. He says, “I am the Way and the Truth.”

I believe Him. And I believe the Church that He established. Thanks be to God.

I have always found it curious why someone professing to be “atheist” would even care to post at a Catholic website.

 

[markomalley]

Can we go back to preaching the Gospel now?

You’re absolutely 100% correct.

We have been far too shy in preaching the Gospel.

We need to loudly proclaim the Gospel from the rooftops. Not just pussyfoot around it…but loudly and boldy proclaim it without fear.

A good place to start is here:
[21] Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God, or given thanks; but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened. [22] For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. [23] And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and of fourfooted beasts, and of creeping things. [24] Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves. [25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

**[26] For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. [27] And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error. **[28] And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient; [29] Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness, full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity, whisperers, [30] Detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, proud, haughty, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [31] Foolish, dissolute, without affection, without fidelity, without mercy. [32] Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death; and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.
You are 100% Calilobo, we need to start preaching the gospel.

 

[edwest2]

What makes you think that you personally, know what God wanted or said or meant? What makes you think that Jesus would not love, and accept homosexuals unconditionally just like he did the lepers and everyone else?

I just don’t get it. WHO are gay people hurting by getting married? They are not hurting ANYONE! They are not affecting anyone else’s marriage, they are not affecting society in any way. There have been homosexuals as long as there have been people, and the fact that they are just now being recognized, does not mean ONE THING as far as them negatively impacting other people’s marriages, OR society.

Children:

amazon.com/King-Linda-Haan/dp/1582460612

npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5366521

blog.speakupmovement.org/church/culture/the-bully-market-how-homosexual-advocacy-sells-their-agenda/

westernjournalism.com/middle-schoolers-subjected-to-graphic-gay-indoctrination/

Parents and their rights

abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1230620&page=1

Peace,
Ed

 

[Tantum_ergo]

What makes you think that you personally, know what God wanted or said or meant? What makes you think that Jesus would not love, and accept homosexuals unconditionally just like he did the lepers and everyone else?
Kathy, do you remember what Jesus said and did? Did He let the lepers stay ‘ill’ and condemn the people for not allowing the lepers not to infect well people, or DID HE CURE the lepers and make them ‘whole?’

Did Jesus say to people who sinned, “I forgive you, just do what we want”, or did He say, “SIN NO MORE?”

And since we know what Jesus has said (and remember that Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity, therefore God, and that the FATHER and the SPIRIT have consistently taught the truth about sin), and that He never said that love was ‘unconditional acceptance of sin", why should we accept YOUR speaking for Him? Jesus gave us an authority–the Church. He did not give us an authority of “society” or "kathyhumanist’.

I just don’t get it. WHO are gay people hurting by getting married? They are not hurting ANYONE! They are not affecting anyone else’s marriage, they are not affecting society in any way. There have been homosexuals as long as there have been people, and the fact that they are just now being recognized, does not mean ONE THING as far as them negatively impacting other people’s marriages, OR society.

You’re right. You DON’T get it. This is not about politics, it’s not about love, it’s not about PERCEPTION of hurt, it’s not about emotional blackmail, it’s not about ‘nature’. It is about TRUTH. No Catholic Christian (or anybody else who proclaims moral absolute truth instead of "oprah relative truth’ or “society says”) is trying to deny rights, hurt people, etc. Rather, in proclaiming truth they are trying to HELP people.

Have you ever seen a person with an infected leg, Kathy? Sometimes the only way to get rid of the infection and have the person heal is to DIG IT OUT. And that, no matter how gentle you try to be, no matter how much you can medicate, HURTS. A LOT.

But if you don’t want to hurt the person and let the infection stay, the person will lose the leg and perhaps even his life. In order not to hurt a person (temporarily), you’ll let them die (permanently). They won’t ‘hurt’ any more, right?

Just so, we might in the perception of this disordered world "hurt’ a person’s feelings on earth, but save their eternal soul to live in heaven. Don’t you think our gay friends are worth that?

 

[KevinAK]

Because even Catholics admit that catechesis is poor in the CC. Because I observe Catholics caring more about marching against abortion than teaching people about the Bible and evangelizing to others. Look at the difference in the amount poured into evangelism and teaching between Catholics and Protestants.

Look at the “Hispanic Reformation” (the fact that Hispanics are turning Protestant in the USA, and I can attest to this).

Look at the breakdown of Catholicism in Ireland, Poland, and the Philippines.

Look at how Protestants are picking up the slack worldwide to re-convert the world.

Look at the fact that people feel they are experiencing God for the first time due to Protestant churches, whereas they felt Catholicism was all about rote tradition, ritual, cultural events, and saints.

Good. Now let’s show love to them, treat them as equals, and grant them rights to marriage. And continue to preach the Gospel to them.

Because the gay community is convinced that Christian churches, including the CC, hate them. Why would gays convert if they honestly believe Jesus hates them?

Because what the Catholic Church does today is anachronistic and does not work in modern society.

It is an inevitably losing battle around the world. The trend is to allowing gay marriages and treating gay couples as equally as straight couples.

The breakdown of marriage is NOT due to contraception or no-fault divorce. Rather, it is the fact that it is now possible to prosper economically as a single person today, when in the past, it was not.

The breakdown is entirely because there is no longer any economic incentive to marry.

It is not a losing battle around the world. The President of Senegal stated they are not accepting homsexual “rights”. He said this while the gay agenda activist Barrack Obama was in his country.

The bigotry and hatred is coming from the pc crowd that supports “gay marriage” towards any who speaks against them

 

[CaliLobo]

You’re absolutely 100% correct.

We have been far too shy in preaching the Gospel.

We need to loudly proclaim the Gospel from the rooftops. Not just pussyfoot around it…but loudly and boldy proclaim it without fear.

A good place to start is here:
[21] Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God, or given thanks; but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened. [22] For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. [23] And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and of fourfooted beasts, and of creeping things. [24] Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves. [25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

**[26] For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. [27] And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error. **[28] And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient; [29] Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness, full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity, whisperers, [30] Detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, proud, haughty, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [31] Foolish, dissolute, without affection, without fidelity, without mercy. [32] Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death; and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.
You are 100% Calilobo, we need to start preaching the gospel.

That verse doesn’t mandate that we have to show hatred to gays by denying the civil right to marry. In fact, we should preach that verse to gays in the hopes that they would change their ways.

However, how is advocating the denial of their civil rights a method of preaching God’s Word, and showing God’s love to them?