Nudity, Catholicism, and Culture

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Now I know that with a topic such as this, I’m bound to get a lot of flak from both sides of the fence but, in my opinion, it needs addressing. This is a debate so please present your arguments for or against in reasonable, logical terms without hysterics. Everyone is welcome to participate. Thank you.

In the United States today, the general populace has a great aversion to nudity of any sort except for what can sell merchandise, basically sexual nudity. This form has become the main staple in the minds of millions of people so that whenever nudity is mentioned, people automatically think sex. This is a problem. People do not recognize the differences between general nudity (going to the doctor, stepping out of the shower, etc.) and sexual nudity (pornography, explicit advertisements, etc.). Due to our nation’s roots in Puritanical theology, this has been the train of thought for hundreds of years and many people see no reason to change it.

This is where our Catholic faith comes in. For centuries, our Church has taught not to commit adultery, not to covet another man’s wife, and most importantly, never to lust. As you may have noticed, all of these have to do with sex. After all, for what other reason would one want to possess another than to engage in “extracurricular activities.” This however makes no mention of general nudity. As seen by the customs and traditions in Jesus’ time, nudity was fairly commonplace. Fishermen went nude, there was a public bath where women went nude, and even the prophets of God were naked when the occasion called for it. This, as we can see, was the product of their culture. At no point was nudity addressed in their religion except for prohibiting unauthorized sexual nudity. This parallels with our own faith. As of this moment, there is no place in Catholicism (except for John Paul II’s Theology of the Body) or the Catechism which mentions rules about general nudity . . . only sexual nudity, aka lust. Now some may mention the part about “keeping hidden that which is meant to be hidden” but when you consider it that is very obscure. Some may take it to mean the genitals while others may take it to mean the entire body . . . both extremes, neither helpful. Thus, as the Church does not offer any truly clear guidelines about the parameters of where modesty begins and ends, then people look towards their culture for guidance. At this moment, many Catholics throughout the U.S. are living under the Puritanical guidelines which this society was founded with.

Consider: Why are men in the U.S. so infatuated with women’s breasts? In no other society throughout the history of the world have men ever been so captivated by the mammary glands except for this one we are in. Well, if one thinks about it, they will most likely come to the conclusion that it is because we hide them, put them away, create a pillar-of-salt kind of taboo around them. This lack of familiarity comes from the home. As I read on another forum thread, most parents of young children state that they will go nude (or partially so) around their own children only until curiosity and long term memories are being established. What could be a potentially helpful lesson for the child towards what makes mommy and daddy different becomes a “hush-hush, these are what they are but we must never mention them again” situation. Thus, these parts are relegated to being yucky, gross, or titillating in their minds. Young boys never learn that breasts are the source of nourishment for babies and infants; young girls never learn that their bodies are not playthings for boys. In essence, this leads to the creation of a circular stigma by which the children when they grow up and become parents themselves will wind up passing on the same “taboo” or “plaything” mentality to their children. General nudity needs to become commonplace in the home so that children will realize the ordinariness of the human body. Does anybody think that there would be half as many teen pregnancies if kids thought, “Oh, its just another body.” Would pornography be half as popular if people realized that the bodies of the models were distorted and unhealthy when compared to the natural appearance of their own family? Truly, we cannot allow this culture to maintain its present course or our children and their own will have to suffer for our failure to act. If Jesus was able to die on the cross naked for us, shouldn’t we be humble enough to go nude for love of our families, too?

Peace in Christ, gw
 
Now I know that with a topic such as this, I’m bound to get a lot of flak from both sides of the fence but, in my opinion, it needs addressing. …

If Jesus was able to die on the cross naked for us, shouldn’t we be humble enough to go nude for love of our families, too?

Peace in Christ, gw
…need we debate further?
 
Some interesting points…I do think that Americans are “hung-up” or have “hang-ups” with the naked body.
 
You raise a fair point, but I’m not going to be the first person to act on it.
 
Some interesting points…I do think that Americans are “hung-up” or have “hang-ups” with the naked body.
From my observation, it appeares that many Americans have an adolescent fascination and preoccupation with partial nudity and suggestive dress and manner; and conversely a “hang-up” with proper modesty in dress and behavior.

Unlike our first parents before the Fall, we are susceptible to concupisence of the flesh. A flourishing advertising and media market that directly appeals to lust is all but evidence of such.

CONCUPISCENCE OF THE FLESH. The inordinate love of sensual pleasure, to which fallen man is naturally prone. It is inordinate when pleasure is sought as an end in itself and apart from its divinely intended purpose: to facilitate the practice of virtue and satisfy one’s legitimate desires.

PRETERNATURAL GIFTS. Favors granted by God above and beyond the powers or capacities of the nature that receives them but not beyond those of all created nature. Such gifts perfect nature but do not carry it beyond the limits of created nature. They include three great privileges to which human beings have no title -infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence, and bodily immortality. Adam and Eve possessed these gifts before the Fall.
 
From my observation, it appeares that many Americans have an adolescent fascination and preoccupation with partial nudity and suggestive dress and manner; and conversely a “hang-up” with proper modesty in dress and behavior.

Unlike our first parents before the Fall, we are susceptible to concupisence of the flesh. A flourishing advertising and media market that directly appeals to lust is all but evidence of such.

CONCUPISCENCE OF THE FLESH. The inordinate love of sensual pleasure, to which fallen man is naturally prone. It is inordinate when pleasure is sought as an end in itself and apart from its divinely intended purpose: to facilitate the practice of virtue and satisfy one’s legitimate desires.

PRETERNATURAL GIFTS. Favors granted by God above and beyond the powers or capacities of the nature that receives them but not beyond those of all created nature. Such gifts perfect nature but do not carry it beyond the limits of created nature. They include three great privileges to which human beings have no title -infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence, and bodily immortality. Adam and Eve possessed these gifts before the Fall.
So your saying I cant walk around in my undies anymore if the kids are home in the privacy of my own home?😛
 
… Well, if one thinks about it, they will most likely come to the conclusion that it is because we hide them, put them away, create a pillar-of-salt kind of taboo around them. This lack of familiarity comes from the home. … Truly, we cannot allow this culture to maintain its present course or our children and their own will have to suffer for our failure to act. …
I think the answer to indency and immodesty is not to attempt a* desensitization *of conscience. The answer is to better inform our consciences and to practice the virtues.
 
Sex was never discussed in my family as I was growing up and we were allowed to see fine art pictures of nudes, but still, when my dad worked in on me as I was dressing (I was 12), I screamed and he bolted. I could hear him outside the door asking my mother what was wrong with me, after all, he was my father and had seen my body all my life. She had to explain to him that I had reached the age of natural modesty and that he would have to keep that in mind from now on. I don’t think living in a sex-soaked society is the only reason for not being naked as adults around children. I know from my own experience that I would have been very uncomfortable with it, especially after I had entered puberty, and my parents weren’t prudes.
 
I think the answer to indecency and immodesty is not to attempt a* desensitization *of conscience. The answer is to better inform our consciences and to practice the virtues.
You are right, Fix, a desensitization of conscience is not the answer to this growing problem. But to become dependent on clothing as a means of modesty is not the answer, either. To a small extent, modesty is a virtue that is naturally inherent in all people. But for the most part it is taught by their family, dictated by their surroundings, and fabricated by their society. Why else would there be such a difference from what Eskimos wear, to Amazonian tribes, to the executives on Wall Street? It is mostly the effects of society and climate. But as far as Catholicism is concerned, Modesty is the prevention of causing lust in another by doing or wearing titillating, provocative, or sexual things to or for someone other than one’s spouse. Otherwise, modesty is lost. If we consider the case of Adam and Eve, we will notice that God created them both naked. If this had been an immodest situation, one could not possibly entertain the idea that God would have put them there in that state. Forget the cardinal virtues and heavenly gifts that they possessed. God does not create sin or put people in sinful situations. Thus, one can only logically determine that natural nudity among one’s own family is modest, for in such an atmosphere respect for another’s body and soul is created as well as the development of a delicate, yet discerning conscience.

Peace in Christ, gw
 
You are right, Fix, a desensitization of conscience is not the answer to this growing problem. But to become dependent on clothing as a means of modesty is not the answer, either.
I do not follow you? Clothing is for modesty, hygiene, and adornment. How can we not be “dependent” on it for these things?
To a small extent, modesty is a virtue that is naturally inherent in all people. But for the most part it is taught by their family, dictated by their surroundings, and fabricated by their society.
Modesty has objective and subjective elements.
Why else would there be such a difference from what Eskimos wear, to Amazonian tribes, to the executives on Wall Street? It is mostly the effects of society and climate.
Yes, climate plays a role, but that does not mean there are no objective standards. Keep in mind that not all in every culture is consistent with the gospel standard of modesty.
But as far as Catholicism is concerned, Modesty is the prevention of causing lust in another by doing or wearing titillating, provocative, or sexual things to or for someone other than one’s spouse.
That is part of it, but not all of it.
Otherwise, modesty is lost. If we consider the case of Adam and Eve, we will notice that God created them both naked. If this had been an immodest situation, one could not possibly entertain the idea that God would have put them there in that state.
That was before the fall.
Forget the cardinal virtues and heavenly gifts that they possessed. God does not create sin or put people in sinful situations. Thus, one can only logically determine that natural nudity among one’s own family is modest, for in such an atmosphere respect for another’s body and soul is created as well as the development of a delicate, yet discerning conscience.
Again, before the fall.
 
She had to explain to him that I had reached the age of natural modesty and that he would have to keep that in mind from now on . . . I know from my own experience that I would have been very uncomfortable with it, especially after I had entered puberty, and my parents weren’t prudes.
“Natural modesty” . . . that is an interesting phrase. Especially since modesty is learned from one’s parents. A child has no understanding of what modesty is. Why else would so many children run around after bath time without clothing? This is ingrained into them by teaching or, most likely, by example. Soon when they reach the age where they begin to think for themselves, they put into practice what they saw mommy or daddy doing. If one’s parent would routinely step out of the shower, immediately put on a robe, and then get dressed as soon as possible, wouldn’t the child do the same? What if in this same scenario, the adult didn’t put on that robe or did their housework nude . . . would the child know any different? This is what I mean. The child copies the parent. Pardon my saying so, but if you had been raised in a household where everyone walked around nude, you most likely would have too . . . even during puberty. To be shy is only natural . . . but if one lived in the nude when it occurred, then they would have had the extra benefit of their mother’s wisdom (who would have noticed it right away) rather than trying to hide it or keep it a secret.

Peace in Christ, gw
 
The child copies the parent. Pardon my saying so, but if you had been raised in a household where everyone walked around nude, you most likely would have too . . . even during puberty.
My parents went around nude and I did NOT copy them, absolutly not. To give a simple example, when we went to the pool, I was supposed to just change clothes in the public locker room. I hated that, even before puberty. Once a child knows what is behind some people’s eyes, you cannot remove that knowledge.

Okay, well, maybe you can to some extent, because I am relatively normal now. But I wasn’t then.
 
I do not follow you? Clothing is for modesty, hygiene, and adornment. How can we not be “dependent” on it for these things?
Modesty in public. Hygiene in public. Adornment is prideful and vanity inducing . . . both sins. A person can be just as beautiful without clothes as they can with. As concerns the first two, I am not talking about public nudity, only nudity around one’s home; being nude in public is for a later discussion.
Yes, climate plays a role, but that does not mean there are no objective standards. Keep in mind that not all in every culture is consistent with the gospel standard of modesty.
Exactly. But the Modesty which we as Catholics practice is based on the gospel. Now even though we cannot do anything about the standards of modesty in other nations, we can try to influence those of our own to not shut up that which is natural just because it could be sinful. For example, I read once that a Catholic should not abstain from being an author or artist or whatever else just because it could lead another into sin. They must cultivate and use a discerning conscience so as to not create or do anything that is sinful; then the viewer must use their own cultivated, discerning conscience to avoid their own near occasions of sin. If an artist creates a sculpture of a nude woman in a natural, non-provocative pose then it is up to the viewer to avoid it if his conscience will not allow him to view it.
That is part of it, but not all of it.
I don’t mean to sound rude, but please elaborate on what modesty means. I thought I had explained it pretty well using simple terms.
That was before the fall.
True, it was before the fall, however the matter of the situation is still the same. Two people, both naked. Living nude in their home.
Again, before the fall.
I don’t mean to be obtuse, but this doesn’t make any sense. Are you saying that God would purposely place people in a sinful situation? Even before the fall, God did not place them in any other situations which we would deemed sinful by today’s understanding of Catholicism; thus, doesn’t that mean that the matter of nudity in and of itself is not sinful? To deny this would show a lack of faith in God who deemed that man’s and woman’s bodies, when presented in a natural, wholesome way (like around one’s home), are not a source of sin.

Peace in Christ, gw
 
. As seen by the customs and traditions in Jesus’ time, nudity was fairly commonplace. Fishermen went nude, there was a public bath where women went nude, and even the prophets of God were naked when the occasion called for it. This, as we can see, was the product of their culture. At no point was nudity addressed in their religion except for prohibiting unauthorized sexual nudity. This parallels with our own faith.
Unfortunately…it does not track with our culture as it did with civilization 2000 years ago. Let’s have a little fun and consider a few potential non-sexual, nude scenarios just to reveal how ridiculous your suggestion really is in our current culture:
#1 you (a middle aged mom of three) agree to meet your girlfriend to discuss the upcoming PTA fundraiser over coffee after you both drop off your kids at school. You walk into Starbucks nude. Sexual? Hardly. Ridiculous? Entirely.
#2 You (a 40-something sales manager of either gender) call a meeting of the reps you oversee to review targets and goals for the coming quarter. You show up nude. Sexual? Not intentionally. Distracting/shocking/ridiculous? Absolutely.
#3 You (anyone) are late and very hungry. The (hairy) counter clerk at your favorite fast food stop is filling your to-go meal in the nude. Sexual? You’re too hungry to think of sex. Disgusting? Beyond a doubt. Need I continue?

We have come to a point in our culture, all sex aside, where public nudity is considered brutish, inappropriate, unsanitary and undesireable. Frankly, given the alternative, I’m quite happy NOT knowing or seeing for myself whether the counter guy at McDonalds is hairy or not.
 
Unfortunately…it does not track with our culture as it did with civilization 2000 years ago. Let’s have a little fun and consider a few potential non-sexual, nude scenarios just to reveal how ridiculous your suggestion really is in our current culture:
#1 you (a middle aged mom of three) agree to meet your girlfriend to discuss the upcoming PTA fundraiser over coffee after you both drop off your kids at school. You walk into Starbucks nude. Sexual? Hardly. Ridiculous? Entirely.
#2 You (a 40-something sales manager of either gender) call a meeting of the reps you oversee to review targets and goals for the coming quarter. You show up nude. Sexual? Not intentionally. Distracting/shocking/ridiculous? Absolutely.
#3 You (anyone) are late and very hungry. The (hairy) counter clerk at your favorite fast food stop is filling your to-go meal in the nude. Sexual? You’re too hungry to think of sex. Disgusting? Beyond a doubt. Need I continue?

We have come to a point in our culture, all sex aside, where public nudity is considered brutish, inappropriate, unsanitary and undesireable. Frankly, given the alternative, I’m quite happy NOT knowing or seeing for myself whether the counter guy at McDonalds is hairy or not.
LOUL
 
Unfortunately…it does not track with our culture as it did with civilization 2000 years ago. Let’s have a little fun and consider a few potential non-sexual, nude scenarios just to reveal how ridiculous your suggestion really is in our current culture:
#1 you (a middle aged mom of three) agree to meet your girlfriend to discuss the upcoming PTA fundraiser over coffee after you both drop off your kids at school. You walk into Starbucks nude. Sexual? Hardly. Ridiculous? Entirely.
#2 You (a 40-something sales manager of either gender) call a meeting of the reps you oversee to review targets and goals for the coming quarter. You show up nude. Sexual? Not intentionally. Distracting/shocking/ridiculous? Absolutely.
#3 You (anyone) are late and very hungry. The (hairy) counter clerk at your favorite fast food stop is filling your to-go meal in the nude. Sexual? You’re too hungry to think of sex. Disgusting? Beyond a doubt. Need I continue?

We have come to a point in our culture, all sex aside, where public nudity is considered brutish, inappropriate, unsanitary and undesireable. Frankly, given the alternative, I’m quite happy NOT knowing or seeing for myself whether the counter guy at McDonalds is hairy or not.
This post just made my entire afternoon. :rotfl:
 
As of this moment, there is no place in Catholicism (except for John Paul II’s Theology of the Body) or the Catechism which mentions rules about general nudity . . . only sexual nudity, aka lust. Now some may mention the part about “keeping hidden that which is meant to be hidden” but when you consider it that is very obscure. Some may take it to mean the genitals while others may take it to mean the entire body . . . both extremes, neither helpful. Thus, as the Church does not offer any truly clear guidelines about the parameters of where modesty begins and ends, then people look towards their culture for guidance. At this moment, many Catholics throughout the U.S. are living under the Puritanical guidelines which this society was founded with.
The way to approach the issue of modesty is not a search for some list of enumerated boundaries. That’s not helpful–that’s what’s puritanical. The Theology of the Body is based on the dignity of the human person, body and soul. Yes, nakedness is appropriate sometimes, but for most of the rest of our lives we recognize the dignity of the human person by covering ourselves. It’s not so much a matter of the different values which ‘culture’ attaches to the human body. This can be problematic, but we need to remember that we are not in Eden. Because of original sin, we must clothe ourselves; we have a tendency to sin that we cannot ignore. It is the duty, especially of women, to dress as so their appearance will not incite lust in others. It’s not puritanical to tell someone that they have to wear a decent amount of clothing.
Consider: Why are men in the U.S. so infatuated with women’s breasts? In no other society throughout the history of the world have men ever been so captivated by the mammary glands except for this one we are in.
Are you sure about that one?
As I read on another forum thread, most parents of young children state that they will go nude (or partially so) around their own children only until curiosity and long term memories are being established. What could be a potentially helpful lesson for the child towards what makes mommy and daddy different becomes a “hush-hush, these are what they are but we must never mention them again” situation. Thus, these parts are relegated to being yucky, gross, or titillating in their minds. Young boys never learn that breasts are the source of nourishment for babies and infants; young girls never learn that their bodies are not playthings for boys. In essence, this leads to the creation of a circular stigma by which the children when they grow up and become parents themselves will wind up passing on the same “taboo” or “plaything” mentality to their children.
Boys and girls may learn both of these things without being confronted with ‘general nudity’ in the home. Boys learn about breasts by seeing their mother other women breastfeeding, and having that explained to them. Parents have the duty to teach their daughters that their bodies are valuable and ‘not playthings for boys’ in what they say and how they act, not by nudity in the home.

Also-- How do you know that this type of openness w/ nudity won’t lead to problems where children may be taken advantage of? Naively thinking that every adult will value their integrity just like their parents?
General nudity needs to become commonplace in the home so that children will realize the ordinariness of the human body. Does anybody think that there would be half as many teen pregnancies if kids thought, “Oh, its just another body.” Would pornography be half as popular if people realized that the bodies of the models were distorted and unhealthy when compared to the natural appearance of their own family? Truly, we cannot allow this culture to maintain its present course or our children and their own will have to suffer for our failure to act. If Jesus was able to die on the cross naked for us, shouldn’t we be humble enough to go nude for love of our families, too?
Those would all still be problems because you can never rid the world of the tendency to sin. Human beings are always going to be tempted by lust…making the human body more accessible to them is not going to remedy the situation; teaching them about chastity and the dignity of the human person will.

And about the Jesus thing… your logic there seems to be a bit flawed, as Jesus’ nudity was not something He chose, but which was imposed upon Him by his Roman executioners. That’s not really the embracing of the human body which I think you were looking for…
 
Modesty in public. Hygiene in public. Adornment is prideful and vanity inducing . . . both sins. A person can be just as beautiful without clothes as they can with. As concerns the first two, I am not talking about public nudity, only nudity around one’s home; being nude in public is for a later discussion.
Hygiene is important in public and in private. We do not need to go deeper to parse it out. As for adornment that is not intrinsically sinful. It can be but not all adornment is wrong.
Exactly. But the Modesty which we as Catholics practice is based on the gospel. Now even though we cannot do anything about the standards of modesty in other nations, we can try to influence those of our own to not shut up that which is natural just because it could be sinful. For example, I read once that a Catholic should not abstain from being an author or artist or whatever else just because it could lead another into sin. They must cultivate and use a discerning conscience so as to not create or do anything that is sinful; then the viewer must use their own cultivated, discerning conscience to avoid their own near occasions of sin. If an artist creates a sculpture of a nude woman in a natural, non-provocative pose then it is up to the viewer to avoid it if his conscience will not allow him to view it.
Agreed.
I don’t mean to sound rude, but please elaborate on what modesty means. I thought I had explained it pretty well using simple terms.
I offer this:
…In the government of the exterior of a man modesty aims to make it conform to the demands of decency and decorousness (honestas). In this way his whole outward tenor of conduct and method of life fall under its sway. Such things as his attire, manner of speech, habitual bearing, style of living, have to be made to square with its injunctions…Convention will oftenhave a good deal to say in the case, but in turn will have its propriety determined by modesty…newadvent.org/cathen/14481a.htm
True, it was before the fall, however the matter of the situation is still the same. Two people, both naked. Living nude in their home.
I do not think it is necessarily illicit as you present it, but I cannot see much good coming from it.
I don’t mean to be obtuse, but this doesn’t make any sense. Are you saying that God would purposely place people in a sinful situation? Even before the fall, God did not place them in any other situations which we would deemed sinful by today’s understanding of Catholicism; thus, doesn’t that mean that the matter of nudity in and of itself is not sinful? To deny this would show a lack of faith in God who deemed that man’s and woman’s bodies, when presented in a natural, wholesome way (like around one’s home), are not a source of sin.
Nudity is not necessarliy wrong, but context determines whether it is licit or not. That was my point.

Your contention is that if more folks went around nude at home that in some way would condition children to be more modest? IMO, that seems to say that simply viewing others nude would make one modest or lessen curiousity? I do not buy it for one minute.
 
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