Nudity, Catholicism, and Culture

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I’ll simply add an observation of mine. On some of the threads regarding modesty and clothing, I have occasionally made the comment that it would seem more modest to wear nothing at all than to wear some of the clothing we see today.

There’s something about the clothing that seems to “invite” a man to lust. Whereas the true naked body with all the vericose veins, orange-peel flab, stretch marks, just doesn’t do much.
 
We as a family dress modestly in public, but have never really been overtly modest at home. I have three children, one of whom is 19 and I was a single mom with him for 14 years. It was nothing for him to walk around in his boxers after he got up in the morning, but after I got married, my husband had objection to this. My son, not argreeing but obeying, makes sure he puts some shorts on now. But with our little ones 2 and 3, on occasion I still bathe with the 2 year old and they both have seen us coming in and out of the shower or bathroom naked. I also never hid my breast when nursing at home like I would in public, so our kids have been exposed to the breasts in its natural function. But …as far as modesty as a result from parents being modest, i dont know about that, cause lately my ds that is 3 will still run through the house naked after his bath, but if someone else who isnt in our family is here, he will go hide and say, “i dont want them to see me” SO i am thinking that some of the modesty must come natural to some. I will also add that my dh came from a very modest home, he never even saw his mom in her p.j.s, and when we first got married, he would lock the bathroom door and not let me in when he was in the shower LOL I thought this was so funny, but i guess after being around us for 5 years now, he has become less modest. SO maybe it is a learned thing and maybe some of it comes naturally. IMO you can teach your child that the body is beautiful and not just a sexual object without having to go nude all the time. I think at a certain age though, it is better to be dressed so that genitals are not open for anyone, even children to view, and I dont think it will make children think the human body is tabo.
 
In Japan they have public baths and nudity isn’t as frowned upon as it is in American society. However, there are still plenty of perverts who molest young women on trains, and the pornography business is pretty huge.😦

Lust is a problem of the heart, and it won’t simply disappear with changing customs.
 
In Japan they have public baths and nudity isn’t as frowned upon as it is in American society. However, there are still plenty of perverts who molest young women on trains, and the pornography business is pretty huge.😦

Lust is a problem of the heart, and it won’t simply disappear with changing customs.
Hey don’t forget the mind and soul. All the heart does is pump blood.
 
Nudity is not necessarliy wrong, but context determines whether it is licit or not. That was my point.
And your point is true. But to deem one’s own home in the company of their immediate family as an illicit place seems to blur the line between respect for their neighbor and pornography. If one were to continue with this train of thought to its only logical conclusion, then nudity between spouses would also be an illicit situation because there is the possibility of sin.
Your contention is that if more folks went around nude at home that in some way would condition children to be more modest? IMO, that seems to say that simply viewing others nude would make one modest or lessen curiousity? I do not buy it for one minute.
Modest in respect that the human figure is of itself modest. Not the modesty of overcompensation by wearing baggy, loose clothing to hide what we really look like. Lets consider the past two hundred years or so of modesty in America. Since the founding of this country, times and social trends have changed; and in parallel with some of these trends, the Catholic’s attitude towards modesty has been altered. Since there were few dicatates from Rome as to what constituted proper attire, Catholics being people naturally went with the flow. For instance, fifty years ago, it was unacceptable for women to wear pants. Now, despite the opinions of some in the present day, women not only wear pants but even wear modest shorts allowing their legs to be seen. That Catholics did not protest this change or cling to the precepts of the past shows that a fundamental change occurred in how American Catholics defined modesty. Now, the time has come again for Catholic-America to reevaluate how it interprets modesty in order to save future generations from the sexual nudity which is devouring our culture while wholesome, natural nudity is pushed to the side as evil. Consider it an innoculation of sorts . . . when the flu season comes around, a person gets a shot to keep themselves from falling prey to sickness. Well, if people, including children, see in their own family what natural nudity is then when the time comes, they will most likely reject the sexual nudity which is marketed in entertainment and fashion because they will know it is unnatural.

Peace in Christ, gw
 
Then let’s ban nudity for good altogether.
A very good and noble idea in keeping with human dignity. However, just like prohibition, enforcement of the laws already in place would hopefully issue a constraint toward the way of what is decent and modest.
 
In connection with my other post, I also want to reaffirm that this is a thread about the effects of nudity in the home on society. Many here have written in about nudity in public which is not what this thread addresses, as I have mentioned earlier. Basically, this country is not ready to accept nudity in public because of its lack of maturity to respond to it as a serious topic of conversation.

Also, many here have failed to notice that when this thread refers to nudity in “the home,” “the home” is a reference that pertains to the immediate family. Not relatives, not friends, only the parents and children. If a child’s parents chooses to allow their parents or friends into this circle then an exception is made for they deemed their friends trustworthy enough to be around their family in that state. In the case of 3blessings, one must ask whether the parents go nude when a non-family member is around because then it is still a case of the child following the parents’ example. I know that this is a rather personal question, but it is very pertinent to this topic and needs to be asked because there is no mention of the conditions surrounding the child’s shyness (not modesty) other than a non-family member is there.

As concerns Rach620’s post:
Yes, nakedness is appropriate sometimes, but for most of the rest of our lives we recognize the dignity of the human person by covering ourselves. It’s not so much a matter of the different values which ‘culture’ attaches to the human body.
Dignity is not a function of whether we wear clothing or not. Dignity is a bearing of one’s attitude, personality, and how they treat or mistreat their fellow man. In our culture, there is alot of mistreatment occuring which is resulting in the disrespecting of others and their persons. Why else would a person destroy the life of an infant through abortion unless they disrespected the dignity and value of that human? Why else would a person become a prostitute or hire a prostitute or watch pornography unless they were disrespecting someone, not giving them their due dignity and value? What I am trying to do is point out to parents that they need to show to their children that a person without clothing is just as deserving of respect and dignity as their clothed peer.
This can be problematic, but we need to remember that we are not in Eden.
Pardon my saying so, but I never mentioned that we were in Eden or that we were trying to reclaim what was lost in paradise. I am trying to point out that in today’s American culture, we need to return dignity to the wholesome nude as opposed to the over-glorified sexual nude which is bombarding our senses.
Because of original sin, we must clothe ourselves; we have a tendency to sin that we cannot ignore. It is the duty, especially of women, to dress as so their appearance will not incite lust in others. It’s not puritanical to tell someone that they have to wear a decent amount of clothing.
No, because of original sin, we need to resist temptation. That is our duty if we are to love God with our whole hearts. This can be done whether one is clothed or nude. What you said about how women should not dress to insight lust, I agree with. However, to “tell someone that they have to wear a decent amount of clothing” is a contradiction to your earlier statement that to create a “list of enumerated boundaries” is puritanical, because somebody has to determine what is decent and the only way to do that is to create a list and then reveal it to others. If that list includes what one must wear to be modest then it must also include when and where one can be nude. Otherwise, without said list, these weighty decisions would be left up to one’s better judgement . . . a different opinion for each person resulting in a disunified Church, a very weak opponent against the lust inducing evil of the sexual nude.

Peace in Christ, gw
 
In connection with my other post, I also want to reaffirm that this is a thread about the effects of nudity in the home on society. Many here have written in about nudity in public which is not what this thread addresses, as I have mentioned earlier. Basically, this country is not ready to accept nudity in public because of its **lack of maturity **to respond to it as a serious topic of conversation.
Interesting and revealing that that you interpret the virtue of modesty in dress and thought as “lack of maturity” …
Also, many here have failed to notice that when this thread refers to nudity in “the home,” “the home” is a reference that pertains to the immediate family. Not relatives, not friends, only the parents and children.
What I am trying to do is point out to parents that they need to show to their children that a person without clothing is just as deserving of respect and dignity as their clothed peer.
Pardon my saying so, but I never mentioned that we were in Eden or that we were trying to reclaim what was lost in paradise. I am trying to point out that in today’s American culture, we need to return dignity to the wholesome nude as opposed to the over-glorified sexual nude which is bombarding our senses.

No, because of original sin, we need to resist temptation. That is our duty if we are to love God with our whole hearts. This can be done whether one is clothed or nude.
Peace in Christ, gw
The only failure that I have seen on this entire thread is how some folks fail to appreciate the effects of original sin and St. Paul’s pertinent advice to believers to “Be sober and vigilant. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for (someone) to devour.” (1 Peter 5: 8).

I will let Adam and Eve (in the intimacy and confine of their home) have the final word on this topic:

Pre-fall: And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed." Genesis 2: 25

Post-fall: “Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons.” Genesis 3: 7
 
Also, many here have failed to notice that when this thread refers to nudity in “the home,” “the home” is a reference that pertains to the immediate family. Not relatives, not friends, only the parents and children.
I took you quite seriously. I did understand you meant nudity in the nuclear family at home, but I chose to give a public example because that is less controversial. My parents went around nude in the home but not anywhere that someone likely would deem inappropriate.

If you need a more homey example, we owned a hot tub. We used it in the nude. With age, I naturally become uncomfortable with being in the nude with my parents, and would not go into the tub nude with them anymore. I find the idea that most kids would remain comfortable staying in the nude with their parents past a certain age to be odd, at least with the opposite sex parent.

Look at it from the perspective of a male parent. Would you really want your 18 year-old daughter to be walking around your house nude all day, especially if you had a 15 year-old son and any form of windows? I think some men would prefer not to have that scenario. Maybe if our society were different, the answer would be different. But our society is what it is. Living in this society will teach girls how men look at women. Once they know, they are unlikely to want to be on stage all the time. I don’t understand your confidence that one member of the family won’t be looking inappropriately at the other one.

Plus there is the raw “ick” factor with sharing chairs that the previous occupant used.
 
I will let Adam and Eve (in the intimacy and confine of their home) have the final word on this topic:

Pre-fall: And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed." Genesis 2: 25

Post-fall: “Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons.” Genesis 3: 7
Is there a traditional (non-modernist) interpretation of Gen. 3:7 such that nudity between spouses, even “in the intimacy and confine of their home” is regarded as an offense against chastity and therefore sinful? I’m thinking of “casual” situations such as sleeping unclothed, dressing / undressing in front of each other, etc. I’ve never been sure if Adam and Eve’s consciousness of being naked had to do with being naked in front of God - which in some sense we all are -, or a sense of wrongness of being naked in front of each other after the Fall.
 
A couple of people have mentioned that Adam and Eve clothed themselves. I would like to add that God clothed them himself. He gave them clothes of skins that he had made a bit further on in Genesis.
 
I’ll simply add an observation of mine. On some of the threads regarding modesty and clothing, I have occasionally made the comment that it would seem more modest to wear nothing at all than to wear some of the clothing we see today.

There’s something about the clothing that seems to “invite” a man to lust. Whereas the true naked body with all the vericose veins, orange-peel flab, stretch marks, just doesn’t do much.
Recently I was surprised while watching television by a warning that was shown before a documentary. The warning stated that indigenous nudity was going to be shown and that it might be inappropriate for younger views or offensive for others. I was flabbergasted. I can’t imagine someone getting offended at the fact that a primitive culture has a different standard of modesty then we do.:confused:

As far as being nude in front of one’s children…We have to prepare our child to live in the surrounding culture. The child needs to understand what is normal behavior in our society so they don’t get taken advantage of or seen as odd. Like it or not, our culture does seem to equate nudity with sexuality. If a child does not understand this then he/she could be hurt by people outside of the family.
 
And your point is true. But to deem one’s own home in the company of their immediate family as an illicit place seems to blur the line between respect for their neighbor and pornography. If one were to continue with this train of thought to its only logical conclusion, then nudity between spouses would also be an illicit situation because there is the possibility of sin.
I hope I did not say it was always a sin to be nude in one’s home. I am saying it may be depending on circumstnaces and I am saying frequent nudity for the sake of being nude in an attempt to desensitize children is wrong headed and will not achieve the ends you desire.
Modest in respect that the human figure is of itself modest. Not the modesty of overcompensation by wearing baggy, loose clothing to hide what we really look like. Lets consider the past two hundred years or so of modesty in America. Since the founding of this country, times and social trends have changed; and in parallel with some of these trends, the Catholic’s attitude towards modesty has been altered. Since there were few dicatates from Rome as to what constituted proper attire, Catholics being people naturally went with the flow. For instance, fifty years ago, it was unacceptable for women to wear pants. Now, despite the opinions of some in the present day, women not only wear pants but even wear modest shorts allowing their legs to be seen. That Catholics did not protest this change or cling to the precepts of the past shows that a fundamental change occurred in how American Catholics defined modesty. Now, the time has come again for Catholic-America to reevaluate how it interprets modesty in order to save future generations from the sexual nudity which is devouring our culture while wholesome, natural nudity is pushed to the side as evil. Consider it an innoculation of sorts . . . when the flu season comes around, a person gets a shot to keep themselves from falling prey to sickness. Well, if people, including children, see in their own family what natural nudity is then when the time comes, they will most likely reject the sexual nudity which is marketed in entertainment and fashion because they will know it is unnatural.
Peace in Christ, gw
IMO, your reasoning is very common from what I read from several on this site. It seems to be along the lines that modesty is mostly culturally established and is licit simply because it is cultural. If I am incorrect in attributing this to you please correct me.

The understanding of modesty is both objective and subjective. The subjective part does not mean anything goes simply because some culture says so at any one point in history. There are plenty of customs today, and in years past, that are immodest.
 
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