Nullity chances?

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eichenb2

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Can anyone give me odds on getting nullity, given the following scenario?
I got married in 1992 (age 23), while in the Army, to a young lady (also in the Army) after dating for about 4 months. We did not plan it, at all. We simply decided that we might as well get married and begin receiving the extra monetary benefits (apartment on post, extra food money, etc.), since we were dating anyway. We went to the local courthouse, filed out paperwork, grabbed witnesses and were married. Both of us genuinely wanted the marriage to work, but held out that if it “didn’t work out”, we could get a divorce. All of our parents had been divorced (some multiple times). Neither of us were raised Roman Catholic; although we were baptized (me - Presbyterian, her - Pentacostal). I was professing atheism and she was nominally Christian, at the time of the marriage. The marriage lasted all of about 2.5 years with two separate separations. Our time together was probably about a year. I, just out of curiosity, would like to know if anyone can give me an idea what my chances of annulment would be and on what grounds (if I were considering Catholicism).
 
eichenb2 said:
Can anyone give me odds on getting nullity, given the following scenario?
I got married in 1992 (age 23), while in the Army, to a young lady (also in the Army) after dating for about 4 months. We did not plan it, at all. We simply decided that we might as well get married and begin receiving the extra monetary benefits (apartment on post, extra food money, etc.), since we were dating anyway. We went to the local courthouse, filed out paperwork, grabbed witnesses and were married. Both of us genuinely wanted the marriage to work, but held out that if it “didn’t work out”, we could get a divorce. All of our parents had been divorced (some multiple times). Neither of us were raised Roman Catholic; although we were baptized (me - Presbyterian, her - Pentacostal). I was professing atheism and she was nominally Christian, at the time of the marriage. The marriage lasted all of about 2.5 years with two separate separations. Our time together was probably about a year. I, just out of curiosity, would like to know if anyone can give me an idea what my chances of annulment would be and on what grounds (if I were considering Catholicism).
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Nobody here can answer this but on the surface it appears that the chances are very good. You did not enter this marriage with anything remotely like the kind of full consent that is the “matter” of the Catholic sacrament.
 
Indeed your chances would be very good, as at least of the marriage pillars seems to be missing: life-long engagement, since you thought you could divorce if things didn’t work out between the both of you.
 
FrenchGwen said:
Indeed your chances would be very good, as at least of the marriage pillars seems to be missing: life-long engagement, since you thought you could divorce if things didn’t work out between the both of you.
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I know someone who received a Catholic decree of nullity because his spouse freely admitted that she had no intention of committing herself to remain in a marriage if she felt she had “outgrown” the relationship.
 
I have to admit it. If the Church were to not grant nullity for my 1st marriage, it would extremely hard to live with my current wife of 13 years and children (“as brother and sister”), until my ex-wife dies (she is barely 30). Not to mention, the innate absurdity of living together in a “marriage” that is invalid in the Church’s eyes as brother and sister with 4 children. Living together is wrong in my estimation and the Church’s estimation, if I recall correctly. The only other option would be to divorce my wife and break-up my family. Interestingly, I have meet a few ex-Catholics who, when confronted with similar circumstances, gave up and went to a non-denominational church. Can’t there be forgiveness for past sins (1st marriage). After all, I had no idea that the Church would have such a stance. 😦
 
eichenb2 said:
Can’t there be forgiveness for past sins (1st marriage). After all, I had no idea that the Church would have such a stance. 😦
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Have such a stance as holding people to their vows? To me, thats a positive for the church, not a negative.

Your first marriage wasn’t necessarily a “sin” to be forgiven. The church is holding you up in such a high regard that it presumes you were at your best when you made such vows. It is presuming, before the investigation, that you meant those words and you are going to stick by them. I don’t see how that is a bad thing.

From your story, it sounds like there would be a possibility that it is invalid. Talk to a priest. Yes, you can apply for annulment before you become Catholic.
 
I am inclined to agree. This is a positive for the Catholic church. I think, in certain situations, this can be too rigid and this can lead to oddities. Por ejemplo, a Catholic can marry a protestant at a city hall and get it annulled without much fuss. My case, being ignorant of the Catholic view of marriage will feet held to the fire and may be denied annullment (and left in limbo :rolleyes: ). I guess I am bemoaning an apparent lack of good common sense.
 
lack of good sense? I disagree with that also.

The fact that Catholics are held to work within their own Canon laws of marriage, and receive their sacraments within those guidelines, and without it it isn’t a valid marriage makes complete sense.

And for those outside of the Catholic faith, the Catholic church makes no such restrictions (those particular to Catholics themselves…such as in a church, etc) on them receiving the sacraments within the rules of the Catholic church…this also makes complete sense, and again, is holding people up to a dignity they deserve. That their marriages are presumed valid

Also, you say you were ignorant of the Catholic view of marriage. 2 points: What IS the Catholic view of marriage as you are describing here? Is it “till death”? because you said that didn’t you? Is anyone else’s view of vows any different? that you don’t have to honor them? (again, presuming validity).

and 2) Would that really change anything? If you knew the Catholic view of marriage then, would you not have married?
 
The bottom line is that I need to talk to a Priest; preferably one who has experience in a tribunal? I live in SE Michigan. Anyone have a suggestion?
 
agapewolf said:
lack of good sense? I disagree with that also.

The fact that Catholics are held to work within their own Canon laws of marriage, and receive their sacraments within those guidelines, and without it it isn’t a valid marriage makes complete sense.
And for those outside of the Catholic faith, the Catholic church makes no such restrictions (those particular to Catholics themselves…such as in a church, etc) on them receiving the sacraments within the rules of the Catholic church…this also makes complete sense, and again, is holding people up to a dignity they deserve. That their marriages are presumed valid

Also, you say you were ignorant of the Catholic view of marriage. 2 points: What IS the Catholic view of marriage as you are describing here? Is it “till death”? because you said that didn’t you? Is anyone else’s view of vows any different? that you don’t have to honor them? (again, presuming validity).
and 2) Would that really change anything? If you knew the Catholic view of marriage then, would you not have married?
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I have no qualms about standards. In fact, my family and I used to attend a Lutheran church. We saw first hand a lack of standards.

I know it appears to be “until death do us part”. However, in our times, it is almost never understood that way. After much consideration, (and surveying everyone I interact with on a daily basis; Male, Female, Young, Old, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, et al.) I think that it is understood more inline with Max Von Sydow’s Ming the Merciless. If you were unfortunate enough to see that movie, you will recall that he promised not to blast his bride into outer space until such time as he deemed necessary. According to my calculations, almost everyone, holds out the possibility of divorce, if things don’t go as planned. I certainly did. But, hearin lies the rub, how do I prove this?
I like to consider myself a person with a modicum of integrity and would go so far as to say that I would have considered it. At least, I would now know and could not now claim ignorance.
 
I have no suggestion regarding that (cf my nickname 😃 ), but I wanted to underline the fact that to me (who studied 1 semester marriage Canon Law and was amazed at how it was logic and truly expressed the Catholic view on marriage) there is a great chance your 1st marriage could be annuled given the facts you told us (ad as long as they can be ascertained).
So it’s definiterly worth the try.

Regarding your second marriage… I don’t want anybody to understand me wrong, but… obviously I can understand how it would be difficult for you to live as brother and sister with your yearlong wife. 2 things
  • Catholic faith is here to tell us the ideal path Our Father has designed for our happiness. Yet sometimes, often, we’re not up to it right away, and life is the story of how we, with His Help and Love, become able to do His Will and reach the Happiness He has specially wanted for us. In this regard you may not feel able to come with pure hands to the Catholic Faith. That is no reason for not coming to it if you saw the light. God came for the sinner, and did not wait for him to stop sinning to love him and greet him as His most-beloved child.
  • on the other hand, you may think about this time "as brother and sister’ as a challenge, a temporary opportunity to better some things in your relationship, (deepening comunication on other levels for example), and above all: to learn giving His place to the Lord. You may want to consider it as a commitment to your faith, a means of turning your heart towards the Lord.
I’ll pray for you and your family.
 
Great reply. Thank you. If I were assured it was TEMPORARY…maybe 🤷
 
eichenb2 said:
The bottom line is that I need to talk to a Priest; preferably one who has experience in a tribunal? I live in SE Michigan. Anyone have a suggestion?
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Deacon Cameron who posts on here is in the diocese of Lansing. If you are in that diocese, he’s an excellent person to contact. You can PM him on here via his user name, cameron_lansing
 
To clarify the terms can claify the concept.

The Church does not give or grant annulments.

The Church reviews a couple and wedding to see if that wedding resulted in a valid marriage for the couple. If the wedding did not result in a valid marriage, the tribunal states that the attempted marriage was null - non existant, this is known as a “Decree of Nullity”.

It is sloppy language to say “I got an annulment from the Church”, it is proper to say “The Church found my first marriage to have been null”. It is subtle, but, different.
 
To obtain a decree of nullity, one must start with one’s parish priest.

The nullity process is not Vegas odds. It is a prayerful consideration of a marriage one has attempted by oneself, and a Church tribunal, as kage_ar stated, to find if it is null.

So, your best bet (pun intended) is to go for broke and make an appointment to see a priest ASAP.
 
from eichenb2: The bottom line is that I need to talk to a Priest; preferably one who has experience in a tribunal? I live in SE Michigan. Anyone have a suggestion?
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The process begins on a parish level. Call the parish office and make an appointment with the pastor. Tell him you’re interested in RCIA, and in an annulment. In many parishes, you may be directed to a deacon or lay person who are trained to begin the process.

When you meet with that person, he/she will listen to you, answer your questions (about RCIA and about annulments), and give you the needed paperwork to fill out (not then and there) and list of documentation you must provide (such as baptismal records, marriage certificate, divorce decree).
from kage_ar: To clarify the terms can claify the concept.
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The Church does not give or grant annulments.
Click to expand...
The Church reviews a couple and wedding to see if that wedding resulted in a valid marriage for the couple. If the wedding did not result in a valid marriage, the tribunal states that the attempted marriage was null - non existant, this is known as a “Decree of Nullity”.
Click to expand...
It is sloppy language to say “I got an annulment from the Church”, it is proper to say “The Church found my first marriage to have been null”. It is subtle, but, different.
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Every single time I speak of “petitioning for nullity” or “the Tribunal will determine if your marriage was valid or null” (etc.) I have to repeat myself – including office staff, including priests – and they usually respond “you mean annulments?” 🙂

So … we continue to speak the language people understand even when it means something else. 🙂

I know – we should teaching the “right” language – but many don’t want to learn it.
 
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