number of Denominations an Church Switching

[jAlex]

DId you even read the link?

You mean when the dude says this ?..

In reality, Barrett indicates that what he means by “denomination” is any ecclesial body that retains a “jurisdiction” (i.e., semi-autonomy).

When we talk about Protestant “denominations” we really do not care about their jurisdiction - that’s besides the point . We talk about their doctrines .

And precisely these very different doctrines are the problem. Not the jurisdiction.

Take any Catholic - so called “denomination” - and if you find two of them teching different doctrine then the rest of the church, let me know.

I would not hold my breath until you’ll find something…

Now rinse, repeat and do the same for Protestants… and you will come up with a whole lot of contradictory doctrines.

Alex.

 

[Della]

…and what about all the Catholics who pick and choose the doctrines of the Church that they will follow or believe…cafeteria Catholics? The only real difference in their case from the case that “every protestant is his own pope” is that the cafeteria Catholic is not schismatic.

Yes, that’s just as bad, but harder to define if they never voice there dissent but just sit in a pew Sunday after Sunday.

The core issue is that the Catholic Church has one central Magisterium that has taught the same things since the beginning. No Protestant denomination I know of can say the same thing.

 

[jAlex]

In reality, **Barrett indicates that what he means by “denomination” is any ecclesial body that retains a “jurisdiction” **(i.e., semi-autonomy).

BTW, here is a definition of denomination en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_denomination

A religious denomination, (also simply denomination) is a subgroup within a religion that operates under a common name, tradition, and identity. In Islam such subgroups are referred to as “sects” rather than denominations

So forgive me if I find his definition of a denomination rather arbitrary and made up on the spot just to serve his purpose…

Alex.

 

[Syele]

BTW, here is a definition of denomination en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_denomination

So forgive me if I find his definition of a denomination rather arbitrary and made up on the spot just to serve his purpose…

Alex.

That IS my point. Look at Joey Warren’s post. He is defining “Denomination” the same way. Every tiny difference is a denomination, therefore every proestant is a denomination by themselves.

 

[Saint_Sinner]

There is an interesting chart comparing two “extremes” in Protestantism at:

religioustolerance.org/chr_divi3.htm

There seems to be some wide differences. What do you think?

 

[Syele]

The whole idea of all those denominations really bothers you, doesnt it?! :yup: Well good! It should bother you. I have the exact source at home it was the Oxford something or other - I ll get it. I beleive the number was 33,000 in 2001. Im sure you’ll feel so much better it when you have the actual source.

That source is quoting David A. Barrett’s study on the subject and infamously misquoting it besides. Thanks, I’ve seen the source. Forgive me for assuming that Catholics would care that they are spreading around inaccurate information.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Take any Catholic - so called “denomination” - and if you find two of them teching different doctrine then the rest of the church, let me know.

Yes let me know too.

Every Priest and Deacon that gives a Homily(sermon for those non-catholics) are not allowed to teach anything that contradicts the Church’s posistion.

If a Parishoner ever believes that one is teaching differently, that person has every right to contact the Bishop or Arch-Bishop and voice their concern.

And I would do so in a New York second.

 

[rr1213]

Yes let me know too.

Every Priest and Deacon that gives a Homily(sermon for those non-catholics) are not allowed to teach anything that contradicts the Church’s posistion.

If a Parishoner ever believes that one is teaching differently, that person has every right to contact the Bishop or Arch-Bishop and voice their concern.

And I would do so in a New York second.

Ok, but does every deacon and priest who speaks contrary to the Church’s teachings constitute a new denomination? Of course not. Still, there are plenty of Catholics posting on these boards who would say “yes” in the context of Protestants. See, if the same standards are applied across the board, the argument over how many “denominations” there are, or should be, is ultimately fruitless and unedifying.

 

[jAlex]

Ok, but does every deacon and priest who speaks contrary to the Church’s teachings constitute a new denomination? Of course not. Still, there are plenty of Catholics posting on these boards who would say “yes” in the context of Protestants. See, if the same standards are applied across the board, the argument over how many “denominations” there are, or should be, is ultimately fruitless and unedifying.

With one condition: that the deacon does not start his own church

Alex

 

[jonfan]

I also know people in different denoms and when we talk religion we are all learning the same stuff. I think what we need to understand is that just because the Protestants all arent under one person or heirarchy(whatever you call it) doesnt mean they are all teaching different gospels. There is only ONE BIBLE(The LIVING, BREATHING WORD OF GOD, ONE TRUTH(Jesus Christ) and ONE GOD. I bet you would find that that is taught in every bible believing protestant church.
I think I wrote more then I wanted–sorry

Hi AllForHim:wave:
Does your above statement mean it is ok to say Protestants all believe the same thing?
Thanks and God bless,
Jon

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi AllForHim:wave:
Does your above statement mean it is ok to say Protestants all believe the same thing?
Thanks and God bless,
Jon

Hi,
What I am saying is that if we did some research we would find that they are teaching from the gospels. If they are teaching what I said above(ONE GOD etc.) then yes. I know that this may not be the case with SDA’s(dont know too much about them), Mormons, JW–but I dont necessarily believe they are true christians. I just feel all these crazy numbers that people put out there regarding how many denoms there are are ridiculous. I really dont think any credible studies have ever been done. They may call themselves something different, methodist, presby,non-denom etc. but it doesnt mean they are teaching radically different doctrines. I know people have pointed out that there are different denoms of catholics (they call themselves some different name) but they are probably teaching same doctrine. I think that it is the same thing.

AFH

 

[Syele]

I really see three major divisions:
Arminian
Calvinist
mixtures of the two above.

Now, some could argue with me that each of those mixtures should be considered seperately even though IMO all mixtures are illogical and probably unbiblical. IF so I would say ok, but that(Being 30 posibilities) still dosn’t reach tens of thousands of possibilities… not by a long shot!

The other inconsistancies are minor vage things you would even find the like of between Charasmatic Catholics and more traditional Catholics.

 

[jonfan]

The other inconsistancies are minor vage things you would even find the like of between Charasmatic Catholics and more traditional Catholics.

Please explain.
Thanks,
Jonfan

 

[Syele]

Please explain.
Thanks,
Jonfan

Things like Using different music in the Church service or charisms.

Things like Not believeing in the Trinity ot thinking Jesus is an angel instead of the Son of God… I would submit make them not protestant.

 

[Philthy]

That source is quoting David A. Barrett’s study on the subject and infamously misquoting it besides.

From the 2001 World Christian Encyclopedia?

Syele:
Thanks, I’ve seen the source. Forgive me for assuming that Catholics would care that they are spreading around inaccurate information.

My, my we are touchy aren’t we? One problem with your accusation is that you assume the number to be wrong; but all you have really demonstrated is that you disagree with the criteria he used. That number may still be accurate even if it was obtained with improper methods. We don’t yet know that whatever criteria you pick won’t result in a similar number of denominations - so be a little about accusing others of something you’re not quite certain of yourself. Do you have an objectively better criteria and a study to support how many denominations exist according to that criteria?

 

[Philthy]

Hi,
What I am saying is that if we did some research we would find that they are teaching from the gospels. If they are teaching what I said above(ONE GOD etc.) then yes. I know that this may not be the case with SDA’s(dont know too much about them), Mormons, JW–but I dont necessarily believe they are true christians. I just feel all these crazy numbers that people put out there regarding how many denoms there are are ridiculous. I really dont think any credible studies have ever been done. They may call themselves something different, methodist, presby,non-denom etc. but it doesnt mean they are teaching radically different doctrines. I know people have pointed out that there are different denoms of catholics (they call themselves some different name) but they are probably teaching same doctrine. I think that it is the same thing.
AFH

You enjoy entertaining the theoretically appealing over studying the actual? Me too, sometimes. Your comments above reveal that you have not done very much reading or historical study otherwise you would know that they are not teaching “all the same thing”. Its nice to hide behind that belief, but it simply isnt true. Get a copy of Wayne Grudem’s “Systematic Theology” which is actually systematic bibleology and you will find out that virtually any topic you choose to discuss is rife with people who disagree based upon God’s Word…Its a fact. The only question is whether it matters.

 

[Philthy]

I really see three major divisions:
Arminian
Calvinist
mixtures of the two above.

Now, some could argue with me that each of those mixtures should be considered seperately even though IMO all mixtures are illogical and probably unbiblical. IF so I would say ok, but that(Being 30 posibilities) still dosn’t reach tens of thousands of possibilities… not by a long shot!

The other inconsistancies are minor vage things you would even find the like of between Charasmatic Catholics and more traditional Catholics.

Those “minor vague things” have caused more divisions among people than you give them credit for. You are simply arbitrary in your determination of what is critical and what is not. And you are using a lot of words to arrive at your numbers. Did you not read my post where I told you how to calculate the number of possible denominations from the number of doctrinal differences?
The only question is what are major differences? I’ll list some candidates and you list which are not major differences and then we can get an idea of how many we are talking about.

1. 
   *]The Trinity is true
   *]Jesus actually was a man
   *]Jesus is God
   *]What is the Canon of Scripture
   *]Church Government
   *]Sola Scriptura
   *]Sola Fide
   *]Abortion is a sin
   *]Homosexuality is a sin
   *]OSAS
   *]The Pope is Christ’s Vicar
   *]How many Sacraments are there?
   *]Do Sacraments convey Grace?
   *]Transubstantiation
   *]Mary
   *]Prayer to Saints
   *]Infant Baptism
   *]Justification
   *]Sanctification
   *]Premillenialism/Amillenialism
   *]Free will
   *]Speaking in Tongues
   *]Election
   *]Worship style
   *]Divorce is allowed
   I’ll stop here - I could go on. Although some of these issues have more than 2 possible positions, we will ignore that for now. With 25 differences we could potentially have over 33 million denominations, but dont despair, if you can simply eliminate half of the differences we would be left with only 5792 denominational possibilities. Im sure you will decide that some of these issues are not issues at all. Just let us know which ones so we can get a feel for how your sense of what is important holds up historically and then we’ll at least be closer to knowing what the potential number of denominations is.

 

[Syele]

1. 
   *]The Trinity is true
   *]Jesus actually was a man
   *]Jesus is God
   *]What is the Canon of Scripture
   *]Church Government
   *]Sola Scriptura
   *]Sola Fide
   *]Abortion is a sin
   *]Homosexuality is a sin
   *]OSAS
   *]The Pope is Christ’s Vicar
   
   *]How many Sacraments are there?
   *]Do Sacraments convey Grace?
   *]Transubstantiation
   *]Mary
   *]Prayer to Saints
   *]Infant Baptism
   *]Justification
   *]Sanctification
   *]Premillenialism/Amillenialism
   *]Free will
   *]Speaking in Tongues
   *]Election
   *]Worship style
   *]Divorce is allow
   Ummm So you consider all cults and Catholics as legit protestant denominations? Also some of those fall distinctly in the catagories I already listed.

 

[jAlex]

Ummm So you consider all cults and Catholics as legit protestant denominations? Also some of those fall distinctly in the catagories I already listed.

The funny thing is the word “Protestant” has no meaning without the Catholic Church . Besided protestants I do not know of any other group of christians defining themselves as a contradiction to (aka in protest of the doctrines of…) some other group of christians…

Their very definition makes no sense without the Catholic Church and so the Catholic Church itself cannot be seen as part of a protestant denom as you try to imply, simply because we cannot protest against ourselves …

Cheers,
Alex.

 

[Syele]

The funny thing is the word “Protestant” has no meaning without the Catholic Church . Besided protestants I do not know of any other group of christians defining themselves as a contradiction to (aka in protest of the doctrines of…) some other group of christians…

Their very definition makes no sense without the Catholic Church and so the Catholic Church itself cannot be seen as part of a protestant denom as you try to imply, simply because we cannot protest against ourselves …

Cheers,
Alex.

Exactly my point, Alex. You can’t list things that are only diofferences between Catholic and protestant and that protestants aren’t divided over. Also people who are Decidedly NOT protestant and instead classify as a cult should also not be included. Then you subtract what is already covered int eh 32 divisions I listed and the things that you wouldn’t make a different denomination of Catholism over and I see nothing left to that list of 25.