number of Denominations an Church Switching

[jAlex]

Exactly my point, Alex. You can’t list things that are only diofferences between Catholic and protestant and that protestants aren’t divided over. Also people who are Decidedly NOT protestant and instead classify as a cult should also not be included. Then you subtract what is already covered int eh 32 divisions I listed and the things that you wouldn’t make a different denomination of Catholism over and I see nothing left to that list of 25.

I really do not insist on how many denoms are, were or there will be - but it is very important what they preach/hold as doctrine. If they proclaim "The Trinity is not true " or “Jesus is just a man” those are pretty big issues for me.

Even if the differences seem minor I still have to know which one is correct. In order to verify their validity, besides talking with a priest and checking the Catechism, I can always turn to the Church Fathers. For us they are the barometer that tells the correctness of the doctrine; and if you ever get your hands on their writtings you’ll see that they are soooo… Catholic. That will also show you how far some of the protestant doctrines departed from the original doctrines…

Alex.

 

[Syele]

I would argue that anyone who says Jesus was only a man or that the Trinity is false are not only not minor issues, they are so big that they don’t even qualify as protestant beliefs.

 

[mark_a]

On this forum people like to complain about the number of Protestant Denominations. And also about how protestants change churches.

Firstly I have heard on this forums the following estimates:
20,000 denominations
30,000
10’s of thousands
100’s of thousands
and one 60,000 (He admitted he exaggerated for effect.)

I’d like to discuss where people are getting these figures as they appear they are getting a bit out of hand.

One thousand seems a-plenty to me.

And Catholics DO change parishes.

True. But not belief systems, which many of us wrongly assume you all are doing when you switch denoms.

However If I suddenly decided to go from where I am to be a Calvinist Baptist… that would be an extreme conversion and a BIG deal. I simply wouldn’t do it anymore that Catholics would switch from their parish to the same Baptist Church.

And what’s wrong with being a Calvinist Baptist? As long as you are not listening to someone preach hate, prejudice, or superiority and you are seeking the truth, you’ll get no grief from me.

 

[Syele]

One thousand seems a-plenty to me.

That it is, if you want to quote that instead of 100’s of thousands I won’t complain. I may not agree but I won’t complain. My complaint was about people spreading misinformation. That number actually had a legit study behind it.

True. But not belief systems, which many of us wrongly assume you all are doing when you switch denoms.

Vineyard to Assembly of God is no change of belief systems.
(Edit: I did just notice you said “wrongly”) That wrong belief is why I included church switching to the thread.)

And what’s wrong with being a Calvinist Baptist? As long as you are not listening to someone preach hate, prejudice, or superiority and you are seeking the truth, you’ll get no grief from me.

The point was that that WOULD be a change in belief systems for me. Therefore to switch there would be a big deal. As much of a big deal as switching from Vineyard to Catholic would be.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I don’t appoint any set number at all. I wouldn’t surprised if the numbers were heavily inflated. However there is clearly more than one - which ALL Christians should seek to find the unity that Our Lord prayed for and instituted in His One Body.

My address was not towards the number of protestant denominations, my address was soley against the false claim that there are 2,942 (or whatever) Catholic “denominations”.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think Syele was actually claiming that there really are 2,942 denominations within Catholicism. I think she’s just pointing out that the study seems to be flawed to a great degree by the way the study ‘defines’ a denomination.

I do believe there is only one true holy catholic and apostolic church-- but I also believe that the study which claims that there are over 8,000 protestant denominations is pushing the envelope just a tad bit too.

I was guessing approximately 1,000. But more realisitically, outside the Catholic Church, using a variation of trinitarian formulae which pervades Christian denominations, I would guess the number is a simple sum and difference of the first three 6th powers. In other words, considering how various denominations’ theological views overlap, I would suspect something possibly in the range of somehwere slightly over 650 individually theologically blended denominations at the most at this time in history.

Admittedly, even this number is far too large when one considers that Christ set forth only one true holy catholic and apostolic church-- so that even two denominations is simply one too many.

Some factors that I can think of which would define a denomination would be focussed on such essentials as…

Trinitarian, Duotarian, or Unitarian…

Christ as true God and true man, Christ as God only, Christ as man only…

Catholic, catholic, or non-heirarchal…

Sacramental, quasi-sacramental, non-sacramental…

In addition to this, one would have to consider the denominations’ views regarding the status of sinful man before an all-holy God, the means by which God manifests his will when forgiving men, and the effectiveness of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross in regards to sinful man before this all-holy God.

It would certainly make an interesting study.

 

[Syele]

Thanks for the well thought out reply Mr. Ex Nihilo!

Any definition of “Denomination” that says there are Hundereds of thousands of protestant ones has to be seriously flawed.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Thanks for the well thought out reply Mr. Ex Nihilo!

Any definition of “Denomination” that says there are Hundereds of thousands of protestant ones has to be seriously flawed.

100,000 is a lot and unrealistic. I doubt there are that many protestant denominations. I think 1,000 is about right.

The only thing divides Protestants is their different doctrines and belief system. Some believe in symbolic being of the Eucharist while others do not, some believe in baptism as merely symbolic and some do not, some believe that Abortion is right and others do not.

Catholicism teachings on any moral teachings remain unchange. The Didache written in 40-70 AD is the first Christian Catechism that actually have the word “abortion in it”

The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child" (Didache 2:1–2 [A.D. 70]).

CCC

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person—among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.

The Bible states 'thou shall not kill" but it does not have the word abortion in it, but it implies it. The Didache is the only Christian document that strictly forbids Christians from committing abortion.

A variety of Protestant denomination is inconsistent in their belief system and isn’t unified as the Catholic Church.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Thanks for the well thought out reply Mr. Ex Nihilo!

Any definition of “Denomination” that says there are Hundereds of thousands of protestant ones has to be seriously flawed.

No problem. As you know, I’m actually not looking for an argument.

Please bear in mind, though, that my estimate kind of had a double meaning too. A simple sum and difference of the first three 6th powers actually adds up to what we commonly refer to as the mark of the beast.

Please also note that I’m not saying that all other denominations outside Catholicism are mere fabrications of the adversary-- because I do recognize strong genuine traits of Christian truth by the Holy Spirit in many other denominations not necessarilly affiliated with Catholicism. Rather, it seems to me anyway, its the divisions themselves which appear to be the work of the adversary.

Even saying this, I am hopeful that people of many denominations will move towards unity as the Holy Spirit draws people together in the fullness of Christ. It seems certain to me that the Holy Spirit, in his divine condensation, must have taken into account how the church would splinter over the last 2000 years.

I suspect that just as the adversary was caught off-guard and ultimately defeated by the death and resurrection of Christ, so too is the church heading collectively toward her passion in the garden so to speak, preparing herself for a battle with the adversary that will ultimately catch him off-guard once again.

In other words, just as the adversary was extremely wrong when he thought he was about to win against God by instigating the murder of Jesus on the cross, so too will he, in my opinion, be very surprised when he finds that his working toward dividing God’s church ultimately back-fires in his face in some way which God has not revealed yet.

The adversary’s tricks never change. And he never seems to learn from his mistakes either.

 

[Philthy]

1. 
   *]The Trinity is true
   *]Jesus actually was a man
   *]Jesus is God
   *]What is the Canon of Scripture
   *]Church Government
   *]Sola Scriptura
   *]Sola Fide
   *]Abortion is a sin
   *]Homosexuality is a sin
   *]OSAS
   *]The Pope is Christ’s Vicar
   *]How many Sacraments are there?
   *]Do Sacraments convey Grace?
   *]Transubstantiation
   *]Mary
   *]Prayer to Saints
   *]Infant Baptism
   *]Justification
   *]Sanctification
   *]Premillenialism/Amillenialism
   *]Free will
   *]Speaking in Tongues
   *]Election
   *]Worship style
   *]Divorce is allow
   Ummm So you consider all cults and Catholics as legit protestant denominations? Also some of those fall distinctly in the catagories I already listed.

1. 
   What I consider legitimate is irrelevant.
   I am allowing you to determine the standard so as to produce a very conservative number. But you continue to equivocate with words when we need to arrive at numbers. It seems you are having a hard time committing to what is worthy of consideration as a doctrinal difference by which we can identify denominations. This is especially obvious when you claim that “some” of these distinctions “fall into the categories I already listed” without identifiying which they are. How many is “some”? Your task is simple: simply eliminate from the list all items you consider unworthy of consideration in determining denominational differences. Once done we will have a very simple means of calculating the possible number of denominations which can result.

 

[Philthy]

Exactly my point, Alex. You can’t list things that are only diofferences between Catholic and protestant and that protestants aren’t divided over.

Which items I listed do all Protestants agree on? You continue to avoid committing to specifics. Which items?

Syele:

Also people who are Decidedly NOT protestant and instead classify as a cult should also not be included.

I know what you’re saying, but the classification of a “cult” is somewhat arbitrary at best. Some consider Catholicism a cult.

Syele:

Then you subtract what is already covered int eh 32 divisions I listed

You produced a list?! It’s not on this thread, and its not on the other thread you linked us to either. The only thing you did was divide up what you felt were the “major divisions” as Arminian, Calvinist, and “mixed”. You attributed 30 possible differentiations to the “mixed” group without the slightest hint of how you even arrived at them. That is not a list, dear. That is simply an unsupported assertion with a number pulled out of a hat without the benefit of peer review. No one gets a free pass to make such claims here. You will need to do better, and I have provided you with a very simple list to accomplish this. But you seem to be avoiding it.

 

[Syele]

The Trinity is true not protestant​

Jesus actually was a only a man not protestant​

Jesus is God not protestant​

What is the Canon of Scripture Protestant/Catholic Division​

Church Government​

Sola Scriptura Protestant/Catholic Division (that or it falls under Calvinism)​

Sola Fide Protestant/Catholic Division (that or it falls under Calvinism)​

Abortion is not a sin heresy​

Homosexuality is not a sin heresy​

OSAS Calvinism​

The Pope is Christ’s Vicar Protestant/Catholic Division​

How many Sacraments are there? Protestant/Catholic Division​

Do Sacraments convey Grace? Protestant/Catholic Division​

Transubstantiation​

Mary Protestant/Catholic Division​

Prayer to Saints Protestant/Catholic Division​

Infant Baptism​

Justification Protestant/Catholic Division​

Sanctification Protestant/Catholic Division​

Premillenialism/Amillenialism What specific denomination is split just over this issue? Please name it.​

Free will Arminism​

Speaking in Tongues Specific Denomination divided over just this? Name it.​

Election Calvinist​

Worship style Go here and I get to say there is more than one Catholic Denomination, Watch it.​

Divorce is allow Catholics allow divorce, just not remarriage after. What denomination split just on this doctrine? Name one that says Divorce is good?​

 

[Syele]

2 divisions would be Calvinist and Arminian
each of Calvinist and Arminin have 5 points. IF people mixed the 5 points from eaach side that would give 30 possibilities.

FOr example:
1point arminians
2 point Arminians
3 Point Arminisans
etc.

Forgive me for thinking you’d know there are 5 points on each side… the 30 is simple math.
What makse you think there are 10’s of thousands of Denominations?

 

[mark_a]

That it is, if you want to quote that instead of 100’s of thousands I won’t complain. I may not agree but I won’t complain. My complaint was about people spreading misinformation. That number actually had a legit study behind it.

I’m sorry to have to do this, but I’m going to have to agree with you. I honestly don’t know what the number is and don’t care anymore.

The 25-32 thousand number makes me cringe when I hear it in interdenominational dialog. The credibility of the number becomes the focus, instead of the reason for all these splits.

We would be much better off keeping this number to ourselves, like when we are yukking it up about how we are the only ones that’ll be in heaven!!

 

[Philthy]

Church Government​

Sola Scriptura Protestant/Catholic Division (that or it falls under Calvinism)​

Sorry I have to disagree with you here: there are strict adherents to Sola Scriptura and some that allow tradition. Some are strict creationists according to Genesis, some are more liberal - and some - like Baptists dont allow for liberal interpretations and would set themselves apart over such a distinction

Sola Fide Protestant/Catholic Division (that or it falls under Calvinism)​

I’ll give you this, but what “faith alone” means varies.

Abortion is not a sin heresy​

Are all methodists Protestants? Do all Methodists condemn abortion as a sin? I dont think so…

Homosexuality is not a sin heresy​

Ibid. Are you going to excluded the Episcopal Church from the ranks of Protestantism? This is precisely the type of thing you wish to deny, but in REALITY exists.

OSAS Calvinism​

How many Sacraments are there? Protestant/Catholic Division​

Isnt confession considered a Sacrament in the Anglican Church?

Do Sacraments convey Grace? Protestant/Catholic Division​

Transubstantiation​

Mary Protestant/Catholic Division​

Again, sorry to inform you that Lutherans hold a different opinion than you do.

Prayer to Saints Protestant/Catholic Division​

Infant Baptism​

Justification Protestant/Catholic Division​

Sorry, but there is too much disagreement out there

Sanctification Protestant/Catholic Division​

Nope. Some Protestants believe in “instant” sanctification while others recognize the ongoing nature of it.

Premillenialism/Amillenialism​

What specific denomination is split just over this issue? Please name it.

Free will Arminism​

Speaking in Tongues Specific Denomination divided over just this? Name it.​

United Pentacostals. Just realize it spills over into the Sola Fide question. Some people that if you haven’t spoken in tongues you have not received the holy Spirit. That is a pretty major statement.

Election Calvinist​

Worship style Go here and I get to say there is more than one Catholic Denomination, Watch it.​

I’ll go here and you will go nowhere with it.

Divorce is allow Catholics allow divorce, just not remarriage after. What denomination split just on this doctrine? Name one that says Divorce is good?​

Well that was pretty good - we cut the list more than in half.
According to this criteria, the number of possible denominations is about 4096. That, of course, is if you consider each of the issues as significant or not. In the end, such considerations are arbitrary and some would that they are significant others would argue not. I personally would tend to think of the divisions as being much less, but that is just my personal opinion. In that sense I would agree with you that the 33,000 number doesnt represent anything important.
In the final analysis I would have to agree with some of the other posters that the number is not significant per se, its the fact that, from the Catholic perspective anyhow, such disunity exists.
Just out of curiousity, what do we know about the author of the study? Do you think he purposely inflated figures or simply had to pick a criterion and went from there? I mean, did he have a motive to inflate Protestant or Catholic or any other denomination?

 

[Syele]

I disagree on the worship style. I have been to a life teen mass and other mass The worship style was Completly different. If you insist that that make a seperate denomination then go for it but It’s a dumb way to define Denomination!

I Don’t care if people use numbers that come from something, it’s the going around exaggerating to try and make yourselves look better. I’m not trying to stop anyone from using a number over 32 I’m just saying running around claiming 100s of thousands or even 33,000 only makes you look ill-educated or like a liar. Naturally, I can’t stop you from claiming whatever you like, but if you want anyone to pay any attention the real issue you are worried about (the existance of Disunity) perhaps you should present your case closer to fact.

 

[mozart-250]

I agree with you. Much better that way.

But that brings up an interesting thought for me. I remember when I was going to Protestant Churches, I never had a problem with changing churches as long as I agreed with “most” of what they taught.

Do others feel as if they need to resolve all issues with the Catholic Church before attending also?

God Bless,
Maria

I might ramble here, but I wish it were that way with the Catholic Church as it is within Protestant Churches.

To backtrack, I had a good friend in college who converted to Catholicism. It didn’t bother me that much and I ended up going to mass with him two or three times. When we talked about it his reasoning was “all things being equal, I would prefer to be with the church that can trace itself to the beginning”.

That remark has stuck with me through the years. And the more I think about it, the more my friend was right. If the Catholic Church can demonstrate itself to be the equal to the Protestant (or let me be more specific and say Pentecostal/Charismatic which I am) in everything else, then the Catholic would be preferable to where I am on the lineage issue.

And you know what, I have seen enough silliness where I am, that it might not be hard for the Catholics to demonstrate they are my equals. I can easily convince myself that probably we all are about equally messed up.

If that were the case, then the only reason I would have for not becoming Catholic is that I tend to be loyal to a fault to the ecclesiastical community I am in. Yeah and I have concerns on how my wife would react being Catholic. So in the end there might be more practical rather than deep philosophical reasons why I would end up staying where I am. If the sales pitch I got from my friend were the sales pitch being used on me.

BTW Syele you say you attended Church on the Rock? My current church is Church of the Rock. If you google “Church Rock Vermont”, you will see the web page on page 1.

The problem (and maybe I am perceiving wrong) is that is not the sales pitch I am getting. The sales pitch I am getting is that “We are the one true church and you are heretics. You might possibly get to heaven, but if you do, it is only through us”.

If that’s the approach the Catholic Church wants to use instead of the approach my college buddy used, so be it. But be aware, I am quite resistant to that approach, and demand a high degree of proof whenever claims of superiority as opposed to equality are used. So far I have not gotten that level of proof and am skeptical I ever will.

 

[Delraek]

I might ramble here, but I wish it were that way with the Catholic Church as it is within Protestant Churches.

To backtrack, I had a good friend in college who converted to Catholicism. It didn’t bother me that much and I ended up going to mass with him two or three times. When we talked about it his reasoning was “all things being equal, I would prefer to be with the church that can trace itself to the beginning”.

That remark has stuck with me through the years. And the more I think about it, the more my friend was right. If the Catholic Church can demonstrate itself to be the equal to the Protestant (or let me be more specific and say Pentecostal/Charismatic which I am) in everything else, then the Catholic would be preferable to where I am on the lineage issue.

And you know what, I have seen enough silliness where I am, that it might not be hard for the Catholics to demonstrate they are my equals. I can easily convince myself that probably we all are about equally messed up.

If that were the case, then the only reason I would have for not becoming Catholic is that I tend to be loyal to a fault to the ecclesiastical community I am in. Yeah and I have concerns on how my wife would react being Catholic. So in the end there might be more practical rather than deep philosophical reasons why I would end up staying where I am. If the sales pitch I got from my friend were the sales pitch being used on me.

BTW Syele you say you attended Church on the Rock? My current church is Church of the Rock. If you google “Church Rock Vermont”, you will see the web page on page 1.

The problem (and maybe I am perceiving wrong) is that is not the sales pitch I am getting. The sales pitch I am getting is that “We are the one true church and you are heretics. You might possibly get to heaven, but if you do, it is only through us”.

If that’s the approach the Catholic Church wants to use instead of the approach my college buddy used, so be it. But be aware, I am quite resistant to that approach, and demand a high degree of proof whenever claims of superiority as opposed to equality are used. So far I have not gotten that level of proof and am skeptical I ever will.

mozart,

The best way to know what the Catholic church teaches is to read the Catechism. (You can even find it online at scborromeo.org/ccc.htm.) No sales pitch, just outlining the teachings… and it also wouldn’t hurt to read the writings of the early church fathers to see what they believed and taught.

Unfortunately, you are not going to find “proof” of anything - if we had proof, faith wouldn’t be necessary!

God bless!

 

[MariaG]

I might ramble here, but I wish it were that way with the Catholic Church as it is within Protestant Churches.

To backtrack, I had a good friend in college who converted to Catholicism. It didn’t bother me that much and I ended up going to mass with him two or three times. When we talked about it his reasoning was “all things being equal, I would prefer to be with the church that can trace itself to the beginning”.

That remark has stuck with me through the years. And the more I think about it, the more my friend was right. If the Catholic Church can demonstrate itself to be the equal to the Protestant (or let me be more specific and say Pentecostal/Charismatic which I am) in everything else, then the Catholic would be preferable to where I am on the lineage issue.

And you know what, I have seen enough silliness where I am, that it might not be hard for the Catholics to demonstrate they are my equals. I can easily convince myself that probably we all are about equally messed up.

If that were the case, then the only reason I would have for not becoming Catholic is that I tend to be loyal to a fault to the ecclesiastical community I am in. Yeah and I have concerns on how my wife would react being Catholic. So in the end there might be more practical rather than deep philosophical reasons why I would end up staying where I am. If the sales pitch I got from my friend were the sales pitch being used on me.

BTW Syele you say you attended Church on the Rock? My current church is Church of the Rock. If you google “Church Rock Vermont”, you will see the web page on page 1.

The problem (and maybe I am perceiving wrong) is that is not the sales pitch I am getting. The sales pitch I am getting is that “We are the one true church and you are heretics. You might possibly get to heaven, but if you do, it is only through us”.

If that’s the approach the Catholic Church wants to use instead of the approach my college buddy used, so be it. But be aware, I am quite resistant to that approach, and demand a high degree of proof whenever claims of superiority as opposed to equality are used. So far I have not gotten that level of proof and am skeptical I ever will.

That is the first time I heard anyone becoming Catholic for that reason. While it may be true, and only you can judge this, but is it possible that your friend was just trying to be polite because he knew you were not ready to hear the many reasons why things in fact are not equal?

The big one that comes to mind is the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

And another.

The sacrifice of the Mass making Calvary present.

Maybe you have a special pentecostal/charasmatic church, but the ones I went to would not have been “equal” in these beliefs.

I find this significant because the REASON I converted/reverted was I sat in my pew crying realizing I could not recieve communion with my brothers and sister in Christ because they believed it all to only be a symbol.

But I would tend to agree with you, if all things were equal, apostolic succession would not sway me either. While I today find it slightly more compelling, it would not have been “the reason” IF all things were equal.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Philthy]

I disagree on the worship style. I have been to a life teen mass and other mass The worship style was Completly different. If you insist that that make a seperate denomination then go for it but It’s a dumb way to define Denomination!

I Don’t care if people use numbers that come from something, it’s the going around exaggerating to try and make yourselves look better. I’m not trying to stop anyone from using a number over 32 I’m just saying running around claiming 100s of thousands or even 33,000 only makes you look ill-educated or like a liar. Naturally, I can’t stop you from claiming whatever you like, but if you want anyone to pay any attention the real issue you are worried about (the existance of Disunity) perhaps you should present your case closer to fact.

Did you read my post? I was trying to say that I agree with you that the 33,000 number was inflated - here is an excerp:

philthy:

In the end, such considerations are arbitrary and some would that they are significant others would argue not. I personally would tend to think of the divisions as being much less, but that is just my personal opinion. In that sense I would agree with you that the 33,000 number doesnt represent anything important.

 

[Syele]

Did you read my post? I was trying to say that I agree with you that the 33,000 number was inflated -

I was responding to this:

Worship style Go here and I get to say there is more than one Catholic Denomination, Watch it.​

I’ll go here and you will go nowhere with it.

But I am sorry I didn’t awknowledge the rest of the post. Thank you.