Number of Protestant Denominations

[PhilVaz]

<< Nearby where I live in Texas is the Tomball Cowboy Church. >>

Ah ha! That now gives us

135.52479 + 1 = 136.52479

Thank you!

Phil P

 

[PhilVaz]

Or more accurately…

135.52479 + 0.25 denomination = 135.7979

PLUS

The First Church of the Doors

church music 1 | 2 | 3

135.7979 + 0.15 denomination = 135.9479

Closing in on 136 :whacky:

Phil P

 

[PC_Master]

You know, you guys have yet to explain exactly what constitutes becoming a different denomination. Thus far, two ideas have been raised…

1. Final authority. The Roman Catholic Church claims the Pope (as the voice of Christ, basically). Protestants either claim scripture (for the sola scriptura folks) or Christ/God as their final authority. That’s 3 different groups I see so far…not even close to 135.
2. Slight differences in doctrine leading to splintering of denominations. The problem with this, of course, is that various groups do and have splintered from or schism’d with the Roman Catholic Church over the centuries, and I’d dare to point out that current Roman Catholics do differ in belief on some points of theology.

Can anyone give me a clear way to define what classifies a different denomination?

Oh, and as for the site which lists 9000 denominations…can you share with us the breakdown of how many of those are Protestant and how many are considered Catholic? I’m not a member of the site.

If Roman Catholics wish to state that complete unity is the criterion on which you must judge a denominational boundary, then my quick search turns up that there are slight differences in theology between the 23 different churches within the Roman Catholic Church.

Wikipedia lists 19 other churches which claim to be Catholic, but do not recognize the authority of Rome. There are around 30 Eastern Orthodox churches which remain in full communion with each other (but again, have slight doctrinal differences here and there). Some 37 churches are listed as being in the Anglican Communion. Do these all count separately, or does it count based on who they are in communion with?

Where exactly do you draw the line? What constitutes a different denomination? Anything less than total unity (which even Roman Catholics don’t live up to, or no one would ever disagree), or is there some tolerance for difference? And if so, where is that line drawn?

 

[PhilVaz]

PC << Can anyone give me a clear way to define what classifies a different denomination? >>

That appears to be our problem. You’ve nailed it. I’ve given Barrett’s then Webster’s Dictionary definitions. Here’s another, kinda vague, doesn’t help much:

“…a group of religious congregations having its own organization and a distinctive faith…” ( source: denomination )

“…a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices…” ( source: Merriam-Webster )

Here is the page on denom by country from the database. Notice who gets 1 denom only: Holy See of course (1), and tiny countries like Pitcairn Islands (1), Sahara (2), San Marino (2), with tiny Luxembourg at (20). Fascinating I say!

Phil P

 

[paarsurrey]

He wrote back and stated, “I would begin to challenge this accusation that there is 20,000+ Protestant denominations. Where exactly does this come from? Barretts Encyclopedia states that there are 8,196 Protestant denominations…”

Hi

Please don’t mind; it amuses me a little. Is the number 8196 showing divisions of the truthful Protestants smaller that they are challenging the numeber 20000+?

Rather than challenging the number, they should be concerned for this division and work for their unity if they are worth anything. There should be **ONE UNITED PROTESTANISM **to start with, till a **UNITED ONE CHRITENDOM **of all Christian denominations is forged here.

If you or they need any help, we NON-CATHOLICS here could suggest such measures in all sincerity.

Thanks

 

[PhilVaz]

paar << Rather than challenging the number, they should be concerned for this division and work for their unity if they are worth anything. >>

Bingo! Another good point. How many churches did Jesus intend?

Um…ONE (Matt 16:18; Eph 4:5; John 17). Hey even you who thinks Jesus visited India, China, Australia, and New York, realizes that!

Phil P

 

[Palladio]

How on earth a Christian can ask where the Christian center is, but insist that Christ not be mentioned, is beyond me.

I am utterly floored by such a position.

Are you not aware that you just described the majority of Catholics as well?

I guess not.

…

These are just empty words. You can claim Christ is the center all you want: the rest of us might judge whether you are making it all up, which Christ called false prophecy. Protestants have been making it all up since around 1500.

The second claim does not even make sense: Protestants are the break aways and renegades: they are the ones whose sects multiply to create the Christian lottery Christian in name only.

Lottery or the RCC: that’s the choice.

 

[Palladio]

The number is even greater than 20,000 by now.

The source is here:

g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZSFEB0W7L.BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20.jpg

amazon.com/World-Christian-Encyclopedia-Comparative-Religionists/dp/0195103181

The publisher, Oxford Press, is located in Cary, NC, and I have held this book (two volumes, actually) in my own hands.

For a more conservative number, try this:

worldchristiandatabase.org/wcd/

Either way, Protestantism is fragmented and getting more so.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

Helps a lot: but the Protestants are already committed to denying any number above the number of fingers on their hands: it’s now up to Catholics to name the denominations!

Protestants invented and perpetuated a Christian lottery which implies that God is a prankster even less interested in saving mankind than a Greek or Roman god, who weren’t interested at all!

The level of self-deception by Protestants on this thread has been eye opening: desperate, angry, ignorant.

It means we have to pray even harder that they come back to the RCC.

 

[cpayne]

A good case of massively missing the point.

Okay, here’s a definition of “denomination”: Anything with a “brand name.” So there’s Lutheran. Baptist. Methodist. Episcopalian. Anglican. Assemblies of God. Church of Christ. If I tried really hard, I could probably come up with a couple dozen more, but that’s it.

Now here’s my point: Line up a devout Lutheran, a Baptist, a Methodist, an Assembly of God, and just for fun, a Catholic. Ask these questions:

Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God?
Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead?
Do you believe in the Trinity?
Do you believe in baptism?
Do you believe in one God, creator of all?
Do you believe in God’s empowerment by the Holy Spirit?
Do you believe the Bible is God’s Word?

Anyone see any differences so far? I didn’t think so.

Of course, there are some major differences, which is why I am becoming a Catholic. But the issues that unite are far more valuable than those that divide. And as far as denominations and faith statements goes, there is really absolutely no difference between a devout United Methodist and a devout Wesleyan Methodist (just to pick an example out of the hat).

Of course, for people who are not devout, in any of the above including Catholic, anything goes.

 

[KarenElissa]

I was at Borders and saw a book called “The Complete Guide to Christian Denominations.” They define a denomination as: “an association or fellowship of congregations that have the same beliefs or creed, engage in similar practices, and cooperate with each other to develop and maintain shared enterprises.” So there is another definition for you.

I also counted all the different denominations they listed and here is what I came up with:
3 Adventist denoms (I counted them separate since some might not consider them Christian)
93 Protestant denoms
5 Orthodox (although somehow I doubt those who are Orthodox would consider them separate since they all believe the same thing)
4 Catholic (the Roman Rite and Eastern Rite, which again many will disagree about being separate, and two catholic groups that broke away from Rome).

I would also note that this was a book written not only a Protestant guy, but he also seems to be anti-Catholic judging from his other books, so can’t be any pro-Catholic bias here!

 

[Palladio]

A good case of massively missing the point.

Okay, here’s a definition of “denomination”: Anything with a “brand name.” So there’s Lutheran. Baptist. Methodist. Episcopalian. Anglican. Assemblies of God. Church of Christ. If I tried really hard, I could probably come up with a couple dozen more, but that’s it.

Now here’s my point: Line up a devout Lutheran, a Baptist, a Methodist, an Assembly of God, and just for fun, a Catholic. Ask these questions:

Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God?
Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead?
Do you believe in the Trinity?
Do you believe in baptism?
Do you believe in one God, creator of all?
Do you believe in God’s empowerment by the Holy Spirit?
Do you believe the Bible is God’s Word?

Anyone see any differences so far? I didn’t think so.

Of course, there are some major differences, which is why I am becoming a Catholic. But the issues that unite are far more valuable than those that divide. And as far as denominations and faith statements goes, there is really absolutely no difference between a devout United Methodist and a devout Wesleyan Methodist (just to pick an example out of the hat).

Of course, for people who are not devout, in any of the above including Catholic, anything goes.

No, you are wearing rose-colored glasses.

You need to parse belief in each and every instance, not assume the claim to believe in what you list is the very same claim in each and every matter.Given the number of sects, you’d be spending a long time doing it.

If the differences are minor, the sect needs to come back to Rome. If major, they have the burden of proof, as breakaways, direct or indirect, from Rome.

It comes down to the same problem: one Christian pro-abortion, another not: both cannot be right.

Lottery or Rome.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

cpayne:

Sorry, folks. I have never understood, on any of the threads on this topic, why the topic is even remotely important.

It’s important because it sheds light on an elephant in the room. 33K denoms is a figure of speech which centralizes many different methods of equivocation.

cpayne:

The 33,000 figure is ridiculously inflated.

How do you factor in non-denoms? Thing is that there have been a spate of threads on the 33K denoms on which people have already posted their math and references long ago and don’t want to dredge them up one more time.

cpayne:

Can anyone here, off the top of your head, name even 3300 Protestant denominations?

Why would this particular subject have to be off the top of anyone’s head? Are not other subjects handled adequately by means of reason and reference?

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

cpayne:

The figure just serves for needless Protestant-bashing.

Granted, it can. But not necessarily so. To say that examining the seed of division is only ‘Protestant-bashing’ is ignoring some valuable observations and considerations the least of which is that – given a culture not so much of protesting and reforming but of rebellion and splitting-off – how is God served and how are the little people served?

The little people being those who have had neither time nor money to learn how to read scripture and doctrine and whose lives are too crammed with putting bread on the table to worry about which group in rebellion, which group splitting off, is the guardian of the Roadmap to Salvation.

In order to negotiate the labarynthine pluralism which is Protestantism, one has to be a scholar. In order to be certain of which Protestant sect is the best bet as to the Method of Truthfinding, one has to be a scholar.

And this is Gnosticism: Salvation by knowledge, a knowledge limited to the few who can afford time and money to study and who move in the ‘right’ crowds.

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Sure Catholicism is a home for scholars. But not exclusively. As you know, Aquinas made allowances for those who could not study. So Catholicism is also a home for the little people. How many of our saints and martyrs – influential in no small measure – have been little people?

1. Is it not a valid route of inquiry to look at whether or not there is an expectation of novelty on Protestant lives – a requirement to reform what has already been reformed?
2. Or is it sufficient to operate as small-c communions with small-m magisteria and small-t traditions while protesting vehemently that such exist? If this latter is the case, then they are actually Protesting Catholics in organization, the protest being reserved for the Catholic Church alone.

I think what we can see is that both ideas of Protestantism have occurred in waves and cycles over the centuries since the Reformation.

Do we have protest, dissent, reform within Catholicism? Sure. But the point of departure between Catholicsm and Protestantism is whether or not the reform seeks to CHANGE what has been held to be always and everywhere true. And whether COMMUNITY is held to be part of what has been held to be always and everywhere true.

Catholicism stops before this point of departure. Protestantism does not. So what does it matter? It matters a lot to the little people who depend on church leaders to act as responsible guardians of truth and community.

Some folks like to say that everything boils down to authority. Authority can be very quickly and very easily demonstrated for Catholicism. But that hasn’t brought many Protestants home. I believe it is about trust.

Scripture speaks of sheep recognizing the Master’s voice. But this is not universally true. Wounded sick will not recognize the Master’s voice. They only recognize the voice of betrayal, trauma, and pain and they will end up following any folks calling themselves masters.

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

cpayne:

Besides, PhilV (whom I regard as a very smart man and a great brother in Christ—why you’re so off the wall here I don’t know), if you accept the authority of the 33,000 figure, you also have to accept the 224 figure for Catholic churches.

Why?

cpayne:

This would bring the Protestant figure down to about 150 denominations, wouldn’t it? Which certainly seems more realistic.

Lost you on the math? Let’s say we negotiate down to 150 – although truth is non-negotiable – but for argument’s sake we derive 150. How many non-denoms are there in the US?

end

 

[Ani_Ibi]

PC Master:

I’d actually challenge any Roman Catholic to name even 100 denominations (which are considered Protestant).

We’ve done this ad tedium on other threads.
PC Master:

Not that I necessarily think this is impossible, but I doubt anyone here can do it, or certainly, that anyone has done the research to be able to do it thus far.

If it is not impossible, then on what basis do you “doubt anyone here can do it”?
PC Master:

They’re just accepting what some author said, or what the common people say, as though it’s fact…which is exactly what Protestants are accused of.

How do you know this?

 

[Contarini]

The level of self-deception by Protestants on this thread has been eye opening: desperate, angry, ignorant.

Help me see the falsehood of this logic:

1. Barrett’s numbers are based on the assumption that every nation has its own “denomination.”
2. This is false for the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
3. Protestants say that it is also false for them–that is to say, many Protestant churches have organizations that span many countries, and/or have harmonious relationships of full communion and doctrinal agreement with their counterparts in other countries.
4. Furthermore, it is probable that Barrett’s numbers also fail to take into account Protestant churches within a single country that have such full communion agreements–similar to the relationship among the various sui juris churches that make up the Catholic Church, or the autocephalous and autonomous churches that make up the Orthodox Church.

Therefore, these numbers are worthless.

Catholics on this thread have insisted on using Barrett’s numbers while failing to refute the above arguments (or even address them, except by a blanket assertion that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are unified while Protestants are not–i.e., by assuming what they claim to prove).

Protestant disunity is indeed a scandal. But the insistence by Catholics on using a patently misleading number simply obscures the real issue.

Forgive me if you were not talking about that particular dispute.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Why?

Obviously because it’s based on the same criteria! The inconsistency here is glaring. Barrett’s ridiculous figure for Catholicism means that his numbers for Protestantism are obviously worthless as well (they aren’t worthless for his purposes, but of course his purposes were not a discussion of Christian unity).

Lost you on the math? Let’s say we negotiate down to 150 – although truth is non-negotiable – but for argument’s sake we derive 150. How many non-denoms are there in the US?

For the purposes of this argument (i.e., a discussion of what meaningful Christian unity looks like), non-denominational churches that agree on doctrine and routinely cooperate theologically must be counted as one. Of course, this is very hard to evaluate–which, again, makes the whole discussion difficult and points the way to the real problem with Protestant disunity (the fundamental vagueness of the Church in Protestant definitions).

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

We’ve done this ad tedium on other threads.

The lists I have seen usually show little or no understanding of the groups listed. For instance, I remember a list of Lutheran “denominations” that included synods within ELCA (similar to someone counting the Archdiocese of Newark as a separate Catholic “denomination”).

I started writing a list last night, by the way–I got to something like 30-40 denominations and then accidentally deleted the post. I could list 100 denominations, but of course I’m not Roman Catholic!

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I was at Borders and saw a book called “The Complete Guide to Christian Denominations.” They define a denomination as: “an association or fellowship of congregations that have the same beliefs or creed, engage in similar practices, and cooperate with each other to develop and maintain shared enterprises.” So there is another definition for you.

I also counted all the different denominations they listed and here is what I came up with:
3 Adventist denoms (I counted them separate since some might not consider them Christian)
93 Protestant denoms

That’s probably a low figure, but I think it does the work Catholics want it to do and they would be better to use it for polemical purposes.

Part of the problem (besides the questions of national churches, churches in full communion, and non-denominational churches) is that if you include every single tiny sectarian group, most Protestants will shrug their shoulders and say, So what? These guys are obviously weird and stubborn and split off for no good reason, and there are hardly any of them. They don’t count any more than the followers of Pope Pius XIII count against Catholic unity. I keep insisting this, although it’s probably a lost cause–the best approach is to interrogate individual Protestants on what they think unity means. You get some really disturbing answers–such as one poster (I don’t remember for sure who, so I’m not sure if he/she still posts here, though I think so) who claimed that the Evangelical Theological Society was the unified Christian community to which he/she belonged. The attempt to find some sort of WMD against Protestantism is a waste of time.

However, if you really want such a list, the best source is Melton’s Encyclopedia of Religion in America. He lists practically every tiny group.

Edwin