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Palladio
Guest
Hugely wonderful!Hello, just checking in…Are we bored yet?
The Facts and Stats on the 33,000 Denominations
DONE!
Phil P
But revealing a sad truth.
God bless.
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But revealing a sad truth.
God bless.
J
Jestocost
Guest
This entire thread is an argument for why this or any other number shouldn’t be used. It detracts from and totally derails the point of quoting the number in the first place. The point is to highlight the doctrinal chaos that results from Sola Scriptura. I think that it’s far better to cite some of the issues that cause the numerous splits. For example baptism. Necessary or not? Adults only or infants ok? Salvific, required but not salvific, not required? Submerse, pour, sprinkle or no water needed? Symbolic or sacrament? We can do this for each of the sacraments and for church structure, and moral/social issues, dispensationalism, etc. Those who adhere to Sola Scriptura argue every side of each of these issues and many more from the bible alone. Even if we get into the fringe groups who deny the Trinity, they argue it from the bible. It should be obvious that something is missing. 
T
Teflon93
Guest
Why are Protestants defensive regarding the number of Protestant denominations if it’s all about the Invisible Church anyway?
BTW, any Catholics in the Invisible Church? Why or why not?
BTW, any Catholics in the Invisible Church? Why or why not?
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Teflon93
Guest
Numbers are useful because there is simply no way Christ inspires 33,000 interpretations of Scripture, many of which are mutually contradictory along the criteria you list.This entire thread is an argument for why this or any other number shouldn’t be used. It detracts from and totally derails the point of quoting the number in the first place. The point is to highlight the doctrinal chaos that results from Sola Scriptura. I think that it’s far better to cite some of the issues that cause the numerous splits. For example baptism. Necessary or not? Adults only or infants ok? Salvific, required but not salvific, not required? Submerse, pour, sprinkle or no water needed? Symbolic or sacrament? We can do this for each of the sacraments and for church structure, and moral/social issues, dispensationalism, etc. Those who adhere to Sola Scriptura argue every side of each of these issues and many more from the bible alone. Even if we get into the fringe groups who deny the Trinity, they argue it from the bible. It should be obvious that something is missing.
And if Christ only inspired ONE, guess which Church is the most obvious claimant to this status? (HINT: not the various communities which didn’t appear until a millennia-and-a-half after the apostolic age).
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Jestocost
Guest
But any number (other than 1) invites dispute and sidetracks to pointless nitpicking. Who cares how you define denomination? Nobody could honestly deny that protestants are divided over the above issues.
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Teflon93
Guest
And yet some do, claiming that they agree on “the big things”.
The number is important because it provides objective evidence of the Catholic claim that Protestants are schismatics whose rejection of authority leads to constant atomization.
It also differentiates Protestants from our Orthodox brothers, who despite splitting centuries earlier from the Catholic Church have not embraced doctrinal anarchy as our Protestant and non-denominational brethren have.
Christ cares how we define denomination. He founded one church, not tens of thousands.
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Jestocost
Guest
Look at what is being discussed in this thread. Sources of the numbers, what qualifies as a denomination, sizes of denominations, which groups are real protestants, types of unity, catholic unity, etc. I doubt even a dozen of the 200+ posts in this topic discuss the reason this number gets referenced.
And I doubt whether Jesus cares whether you define a denomination by doctrinal unity, agreeing on the “big” things, heirarchy, leadership, etc. They are divisions in His church. The precise definition is irrelevant
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Teflon93
Guest
Undiagnosed wounds do not get healed.
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Palladio
Guest
Rubbish: one protestant sect is pro-abortion, another is not, doctrinally: the definition matters completely; another is pro gay marriage, another is not. Unless a church is defined by its morality, you will invent as many Christs as there are churches–which is the present situation because of the number of Protestant sects.
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Teflon93
Guest
We will never achieve Christian unity until the tide of schism not only stops rolling, but recedes.
How many Episcopalians will lose their faith altogether due to the schism roiling the American church? How many Presbyterians?
The non-doctrinal megachurches do not only get their members from the unfaithful, you know.
We are called to unity. True ecumenism is targeted toward achieving that unity through the hard work of healing schisms, not by wallpapering over them, ignoring their existence, nor wishing them away.
How much more unified we would be if Protestantism had stopped with the Lutheran and Anglican!
How many Episcopalians will lose their faith altogether due to the schism roiling the American church? How many Presbyterians?
The non-doctrinal megachurches do not only get their members from the unfaithful, you know.
We are called to unity. True ecumenism is targeted toward achieving that unity through the hard work of healing schisms, not by wallpapering over them, ignoring their existence, nor wishing them away.
How much more unified we would be if Protestantism had stopped with the Lutheran and Anglican!
Y
Yerusalyim
Guest
Did you know that 93% of statistics cited in these boards are made up.
J
Jestocost
Guest
I never stated that the reasons for the divisions were irrelevant. What is irrelevant is whether the Free Will Baptist Church and the United Free Will Baptist counts as one denomination, two or many. It’s all definitions and semantics and it matters very little.
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
PC Master:
PC Master:
continued…
That is about judging heart, motivations which is solely the purvey of God. We cannot judge why someone is doing something if that person has not given reasons.
PC Master:
When I give you answers, you beg the question, equivocate, and evade. That seems rhetorical to me.
continued…
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
PC Master:
Again you evade the point which has been made to you several times before on this thread. Catholicism is unified in doctrine, community, and accountability. Catholicism IS the Church. The denominations have one foot in the Church and one foot outside the Church. The foot outside the Church is splintered.
Our infallible teaching does not change. It never changes. I cannot change.
The only thing which Protestants claim is infallible is Scripture and that has changed and continues to change. I have already pointed this out in detail above.
Before 1880 the KJV included the deuteros. Then they took them out. Then they put them back in. The Emerging Church Movement, which claims to be Protestant, is in the process of taking even more bits out of the Bible.
Moreover, the interpretation of scripture changes for every Protestant who reads it. On that basis alone, there are millions of denominations.
We have one bottom line. Only one bottom line. And that is the Magisterium which fully reflects the teachings of Jesus and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Protesants have multiple bottom lines. They like to claim they have the various unifying Confessions: Westminster, Chicago, and so on. However, accountability rests on multiple separate interpretations and applications of those Confessions. It’s a lottery.
The Catholic Church is one community. I can go to any Catholic church in the world and slip right into the Mass and the Sacraments of Communion and Absolution, never missing a beat. Because all Catholic churches, although expressing local customs, share in one Tradition.
Protestants have multiple traditions. Your local customs are in fact your traditions, notwithstanding that you have so-called Confessions around which you rally.
continued…
of Christianity is splintered, as is that which is called Catholicism.
Again you evade the point which has been made to you several times before on this thread. Catholicism is unified in doctrine, community, and accountability. Catholicism IS the Church. The denominations have one foot in the Church and one foot outside the Church. The foot outside the Church is splintered.
Our infallible teaching does not change. It never changes. I cannot change.
The only thing which Protestants claim is infallible is Scripture and that has changed and continues to change. I have already pointed this out in detail above.
Before 1880 the KJV included the deuteros. Then they took them out. Then they put them back in. The Emerging Church Movement, which claims to be Protestant, is in the process of taking even more bits out of the Bible.
Moreover, the interpretation of scripture changes for every Protestant who reads it. On that basis alone, there are millions of denominations.
We have one bottom line. Only one bottom line. And that is the Magisterium which fully reflects the teachings of Jesus and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Protesants have multiple bottom lines. They like to claim they have the various unifying Confessions: Westminster, Chicago, and so on. However, accountability rests on multiple separate interpretations and applications of those Confessions. It’s a lottery.
The Catholic Church is one community. I can go to any Catholic church in the world and slip right into the Mass and the Sacraments of Communion and Absolution, never missing a beat. Because all Catholic churches, although expressing local customs, share in one Tradition.
Protestants have multiple traditions. Your local customs are in fact your traditions, notwithstanding that you have so-called Confessions around which you rally.
continued…
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
PC Master:
PC Master:
continued…
What folks claim and what is true are not necessarily the same. Just because sombody claims something does not mean that it is true. Only one group can demonstrate apostolic succession by means of historical observation and that is the Catholic Church.
PC Master:
What is your problem with this? The Catholic Church is the Church which Jesus instituted. The denominations arose when people left the Catholic Church. And when they subsequently left each other. And when they are leaving even the whole idea of leaving, choosing instead to come back to a simulacra of the Catholic Church but on their own terms. The terms of an ‘academy of scholars’ as we see in the Emerging Church Movement.
continued…
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
PC Master:
He instituted the Catholic Church. He did not institute any of the other denominations.
PC Master:
continued…
denominations in general.
He instituted the Catholic Church. He did not institute any of the other denominations.
PC Master:
Nobody said that Catholics do not have problems, questions, doubts. We do. The difference between Catholics and Protestants is that we have answers to our questions, solutions to our problems, and tried and trued methods of seeking help for our doubts. And all of these are unified always and everywhere for everyone. We are unified in doctrine, community, and accountablity. Protestants are not. For yall, it is a lottery.
continued…
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
PC Master:
PC Master:
But can they demonstrate this by pointing to history?
PC Master:
PC Master:
Your UNSUBSANTIATED opinion.
PC Master:
Maybe, but can you prove it? If you can prove it, then why haven’t you done so already?
PC Master:
PC Master:
What is your problem with busting the elephant in the room concerning some of the less-than-straight-forward denominations like the Emerging Church Movement and calling it what it is: a marketing scheme to ‘isolate/insulate the folks in the pews from the academy of scholars who make all the decisions?’ Actually ‘lottery’ was not the first word that came to mind but, in the interests of charity, it will do… end of post
We can demonstrate this by pointing to history.
PC Master:
have valid succession and that there was no single leader.
But can they demonstrate this by pointing to history?
PC Master:
No. This is an equivocation. Small-c catholicism – the kind which Protestants claim for themselves – the invisible church – is splintered. Big-c Catholicism is unified in doctrine, community, and accountability.
PC Master:
splinter.
Your UNSUBSANTIATED opinion.
PC Master:
.
Maybe, but can you prove it? If you can prove it, then why haven’t you done so already?
PC Master:
John 6 is about Jesus giving folks a CLEAR choice. The kind of marketing strategies of Protestant sects like the Emerging Church Movement is a lottery. If you are smart enough then you can figure out that the pastors are pulling the wool over your eyes. If you are not, then you are gulled in much the same way the German peasants were gulled by Luther.
PC Master:
What is your problem with the Roman Catholic Church being right and the denominations being less-than-right? Just because some folks don’t want to be here, doesn’t make us wrong.
What is your problem with busting the elephant in the room concerning some of the less-than-straight-forward denominations like the Emerging Church Movement and calling it what it is: a marketing scheme to ‘isolate/insulate the folks in the pews from the academy of scholars who make all the decisions?’ Actually ‘lottery’ was not the first word that came to mind but, in the interests of charity, it will do… end of post
J
Jestocost
Guest
No, it’s only 41.729%
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
So definitions are not important? How can we have a discussion without definitions?
Semantics? Being clear, accountable for what one says, gaining common understanding are semantics?
As for mattering very little, I would qualify that by suggesting that it may matter very little to YOU, but it obviously mattered to Jesus, otherwise He would not have prayed for unity.
If one Baptist groups claims truth and another Baptist group also claims truth but bases its claims on different doctrines, then one group must be wrong.
Why? Because truth cannot contradict truth.
And being wrong IS important. It may not be important for the folks who think up doctrine. But it sure is important for the ordinary folks in the pew.
P
Palladio
Guest
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