Numbers 23:19

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[BIBLEDRB]Numbers 23:19[/BIBLEDRB]

A Muslim I spoke to today used this verse to negate the Trinity Doctrine, and I didn’t know how to respond. Can anyone help me with that? What are some Old Testament examples of the Trinity or of Jesus? I know of Genesis 1:26, but he says that it’s using the “Royal Plural”, when “we” actually means “I”. What do I respond with?
 
HI,

I found some good stuff in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ludwig Ott.

It’s on Pages 51-52. Talks about indications of the Holy Trinity in the OT.

It’s a long section or else I would have typed it here. See if your local library has one, I would recommend it. If you cannot get ahold of it, let me know and I will type it in here as a reply later this weekend.

God Bless.
 
God did not reveal everything to Abraham - God revealed himself gradually over several millennia. The Trinity was one of the last things revealed, and thus there is very little about it in the OT (and nothing explicit).

As Numbers was written well before the Incarnation, it is completely accurate in noting that God is not a man.

There are LOTS of things in the Christian Faith that have no OT basis.
 
Cruxis117 said:
[BIBLEDRB]Numbers 23:19[/BIBLEDRB]

A Muslim I spoke to today used this verse to negate the Trinity Doctrine, and I didn’t know how to respond. Can anyone help me with that? What are some Old Testament examples of the Trinity or of Jesus? I know of Genesis 1:26, but he says that it’s using the “Royal Plural”, when “we” actually means “I”. What do I respond with?
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You can play “bible darts” if you want, but this passage in no way negates the Trinity.

It just says God’s ways are not man’s ways. Period. If you read more into this you have not read the context.

In any case, for me Deuteronomy 6:5 has always held the clearest understanding of how God made us in His image. “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.” Why doesn’t it just say “love God completely”? We, in God’s image have imprinted in us the image of the perfect divisions that are seen in the Trinity. I wouldn’t go so far as to try to directly correlate these divisions: we are not God, but neither are we expressed fully in a unitary sense either.
 
Cruxis117 said:
[BIBLEDRB]Numbers 23:19[/BIBLEDRB]

A Muslim I spoke to today used this verse to negate the Trinity Doctrine, and I didn’t know how to respond. Can anyone help me with that? What are some Old Testament examples of the Trinity or of Jesus? I know of Genesis 1:26, but he says that it’s using the “Royal Plural”, when “we” actually means “I”. What do I respond with?
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not saying “God is not [a man]”
but more like says “God is not [like a man who lies]”, meaning God doesn’t lie

not saying “God is not [as the son of man]”
but “God is not [as the son of man that he should be changed]”, meaning God doesn’t change,
which is shown in Malachi 3:6 “For I am the LORD, I change not”

if he presses on ‘God is not a man’ bit, give him,
Exodus 15:3
The LORD is a man (therefore God is a man?)
of war: the LORD is his name
 
Cruxis117 said:
[BIBLEDRB]Numbers 23:19[/BIBLEDRB]

A Muslim I spoke to today used this verse to negate the Trinity Doctrine, and I didn’t know how to respond. Can anyone help me with that? What are some Old Testament examples of the Trinity or of Jesus? I know of Genesis 1:26, but he says that it’s using the “Royal Plural”, when “we” actually means “I”. What do I respond with?
Click to expand...
First, I would note that this passage doesn’t even touch on the Trinity. The Triune God does not lie and does not change, and in His divinity is not man.

Second, I would note that the passage was written before the Incarnation took place.

And third, I would note the context, which is to make a point about God’s faithfulness, which He has both before and after the Incarnation because of His divinity, not His humanity. Therefore even were this passage written after the Incarnation (which it was not), it would still be talking about God in His divine nature, not in His (the Second Person’s that is) human nature.

As a side note, in my experience when debating with a Muslim he will generally use the Bible to try to prove his points as though it were this great authority, then when backed into a corner by scriptures contradicting him will fall back on “the text is corrupted”. Can’t get very far that way.
 
Aelred_Minor said:
Second, I would note that the passage was written before the Incarnation took place.
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Best not to go there. Jesus said “before Abraham was, I am”. Sorry. In a rush or I’d do better citation. Let me know if you want the Gospel verse & I’ll look it up later.

Your other two points encompass enough.
 
Cruxis117 said:
[BIBLEDRB]Numbers 23:19[/BIBLEDRB]

A Muslim I spoke to today used this verse to negate the Trinity Doctrine, and I didn’t know how to respond. Can anyone help me with that? What are some Old Testament examples of the Trinity or of Jesus? I know of Genesis 1:26, but he says that it’s using the “Royal Plural”, when “we” actually means “I”. What do I respond with?
Click to expand...
God reveals Himself to Abraham as three men(Gen.18:1-4) Abraham actually addresses the three men as “My Lord”. Anyway just read Genesis 18-19, specifically 19:24 which plainly shows that God is One Lord in three persons. Case closed.
 
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