Numerical discrepancies in the Koran!

[Angelos]

Good job man. I appreciate that. I will wait until then. Please make sure, it is not just your version of interpretation. Have some solid evidence too for your claims.

Where are you from?

Thanks my friend.

How can I make sure that it is not my personal interpretation whilst I know very well that all those claims for the scientific peculiarities of the Koran are actually the result of the highly personal interpretations of some Islamic scholars endeavoring to elevate the Islamic scripture and make some innocent Muslims rejoice for no good reason.

Do not worry, I have solid evidence from the Koran itself. My evidence surpasses that one presented by the Islamic commentators and clerics.

Peace,
Angelos N. (ex-Muslim from Bosnia)

 

[Khalfan]

Hi Khalfan

The angrier you get, the less understandable your posts become
I never expect Hebrews to use the word “AYAH”, this is exactly why I wrote in my previous response that AYAH was an Islamic term used in the Koran for the sentences supposedly revealed from Allah to Mohammed. In short, the verse I quoted highlights the fact that it was the Koran verses that were perverted by Muslims.

My dear, Do you remember the mention of ‘sign’ in the bracket? The meaning of AYAH? the signs were perverted. Not the word AYAH. Like miraculous birth of Jesus, His claim of being servent of GOD, Cruci’fiction’, etc.

You must be kidding! My post did not even imply anything related to the Trinitarian faith. Re-read my response please: it was an example given to illustrate how the Koran uses WE while recounting historical narratives.

I wanted to point out that GOD used it to represent himself, as Queen elizabeth use ‘WE’, ‘US’ to represent herself. Since Kings and Emporers used it, Why GOD cannot? Since GOD was talikng to human in a human language that humans can understand, it easy to all humans to understand the usage of language except you. Why I mentioned trinity is, Christians uses that interpretation (‘us’ means more than one) to prove trinity.

You are going off-topic again, but anyway. I still believe that the first chapter - and we know that it was not the first chapter allegedly revealed or dictated to Mohammed! - is the foremost example of the Judeo-Christian notion of inspiration vs revelation in the Koran. Unlike many other surahs recited during salat, this chapter does not have the command “KUL” (say) at the beginning of this prevalent Islamic prayer.

Again, I will inform GOD about it to take care next time. Thanks for suggetion.

Now be honest at least to yourself and please stop attacking me personally instead of trying to debunk my theories. Thanks for your sarcastic advice

Peace to you,
Angelos N.

 

[Angelos]

My dear, Do you remember the mention of ‘sign’ in the bracket? The meaning of AYAH? the signs were perverted. Not the word AYAH. Like miraculous birth of Jesus, His claim of being servent of GOD, Cruci’fiction’, etc.

Thus, your beloved Scripture fails to make distinction between SIGNS & AYAH (meaning sentences in the Koran). The arabic original reads “AYATINA”, making it clear that the sentences in the Koran were in question.

I wanted to point out that GOD used it to represent himself, as Queen elizabeth use ‘WE’, ‘US’ to represent herself. Since Kings and Emporers used it, Why GOD cannot? Since GOD was talikng to human in a human language that humans can understand, it easy to all humans to understand the usage of language except you. Why I mentioned trinity is, Christians uses that interpretation (‘us’ means more than one) to prove trinity.

I cannot believe that your post is still irrelevant to my question

It was YOU who first claimed that the Koran used Allah as a proper noun instead of the FIRST person plural pronoun WE while reporting history to Mohammed. Now you presume that I believe this to be impossible?

Peace,
Angelos N.

 

[Khalfan]

Thus, your beloved Scripture fails to make distinction between SIGNS & AYAH (meaning sentences in the Koran). The arabic original reads “AYATINA”, making it clear that the sentences in the Koran were in question.

I cannot believe that your post is still irrelevant to my question

It was YOU who first claimed that the Koran used Allah as a proper noun instead of the FIRST person plural pronoun WE while reporting history to Mohammed. Now you presume that I believe this to be impossible?

Peace,
Angelos N.

Are you ready for a public debate on this issue of numerical discrypencies in Quran? Any Muslim scholar can clear the discrepencies to the public. But you… I am not sure, if you will ever understand the signs.

 

[Angelos]

Are you ready for a public debate on this issue of numerical discrypencies in Quran? Any Muslim scholar can clear the discrepencies to the public. But you… I am not sure, if you will ever understand the signs.

Not difficult to guess what kind of strategies Muslim scholars will follow to clear out the discrepancies.

I am not good at Arabic, so those Muslim scholars will present me to the public as the loser from the first. I have a better idea: Go and consult those scholars and post their responses here

Peace,
Angelos N.

 

[Khalfan]

Not difficult to guess what kind of strategies Muslim scholars will follow to clear out the discrepancies.

I am not good at Arabic, so those Muslim scholars will present me to the public as the loser from the first. I have a better idea: Go and consult those scholars and post their responses here

Peace,
Angelos N.

Afraid to face the public… nHaaa!!! Sitting in a corner and make discrepencies in any book is easy my dear. Stop spreading these nonsense if you are unable to understand an Arabic Quran.

Did you say, you are an Ex-Muslim? Now you know why I doubted that. Be honest when you talk. It is a good habit, even if you don’t believe in any GOD.

 

[Angelos]

Afraid to face the public… nHaaa!!! Sitting in a corner and make discrepencies in any book is easy my dear. Stop spreading these nonsense if you are unable to understand an Arabic Quran.

Did you say, you are an Ex-Muslim? Now you know why I doubted that. Be honest when you talk. It is a good habit, even if you don’t believe in any GOD.

Afraid??? Yes, of course. No intelligent man would be brave enough to incur the wrath of fundamentalist Muslim scholars and make oneself an easy target of mentally sick people who believe nothing is better than killing an infidel while serving Allah

I do not have to speak perfect Arabic in order to highlight the problems in Allah’s supposedly final revelation. You see? My prediction has already come true. You disregard my claims before my supposed debate with Muslim scholars solely because I am honest enough to confess I am not good at Arabic. Besides, please tell your Muslim brothers to stop translating the Koran into English if there is no use reading your Scripture in any language other than its original one.

I pray that Muslims like you will one day find something better than attacking my character instead of my arguments. Poisoning the well will not help Muslim debaters anymore. My friendly advice: study your scripture objectively and see with your own eyes that it is full of discrepancies.

Let me finally remind you: I do not think I have to prove my conversion to Christianity since I am not interested in convincing you or others here about my previous religious affiliation. I am very much pleased with that personal freedom of mine.

Peace to you (no matter how much you hate me as the tone of your posts clearly indicate)

Angelos N.

 

[Khalfan]

Afraid??? Yes, of course. No intelligent man would be brave enough to incur the wrath of fundamentalist Muslim scholars and make oneself an easy target of mentally sick people who believe nothing is better than killing an infidel while serving Allah

I do not have to speak perfect Arabic in order to highlight the problems in Allah’s supposedly final revelation. You see? My prediction has already come true. You disregard my claims before my supposed debate with Muslim scholars solely because I am honest enough to confess I am not good at Arabic. Besides, please tell your Muslim brothers to stop translating the Koran into English if there is no use reading your Scripture in any language other than its original one.

I pray that Muslims like you will one day find something better than attacking my character instead of my arguments. Poisoning the well will not help Muslim debaters anymore. My friendly advice: study your scripture objectively and see with your own eyes that it is full of discrepancies.

Let me finally remind you: I do not think I have to prove my conversion to Christianity since I am not interested in convincing you or others here about my previous religious affiliation. I am very much pleased with that personal freedom of mine.

Peace to you (no matter how much you hate me as the tone of your posts clearly indicate)

Angelos N.

I think, those reasons are enough to escape from facing a scholar. Did you try to learn about these discrepencies from a Muslim scholar before you convert to Christianity?

Believe me, I don’t hate you.

 

[Angelos]

I think, those reasons are enough to escape from facing a scholar. Did you try to learn about these discrepencies from a Muslim scholar before you convert to Christianity?

Believe me, I don’t hate you.

What is your reason for turning down my suggestion? Can’t you consult a Muslim scholar to clarify these apparent discrepancies?

Believe me: before my conversion I thought it was impossible for the Koran to have discrepancies.

I love you too, my ex-brother in faith.

Angelos N.

 

[Khalfan]

What is your reason for turning down my suggestion? Can’t you consult a Muslim scholar to clarify these apparent discrepancies?

Believe me: before my conversion I thought it was impossible for the Koran to have discrepancies.

I love you too, my ex-brother in faith.

Angelos N.

Let me know someting about you first. I want to know, how much you are interested to know Quran. The whole way long I could see, only confirmative comments. Like you don’t want to know the reason behind.

You mentioned about the English translation of the Quran. Quran is at its best in Arabic. We kept that unchanged for last 1400 years. The translations in all other languges is just an opening to the original Quran. Please note that, none of the translators will claim the accuracy of the meaning. The translator doesn’t take the responsibility of wrong interpretation. If we are still using the translation, it is up us, to learn from the translation, or to learn from the arabic Quran or to learn from scholar directly. You can choose the way you want to learn Quran. Were you ever had an intention to learn Quran?

When you noticed those discrepencies in Quran -before or after conversion?

When you noticed those discrepencies in Quran -what you did first? did you check with any scholar about it?

 

[Angelos]

Let me know someting about you first. I want to know, how much you are interested to know Quran. The whole way long I could see, only confirmative comments. Like you don’t want to know the reason behind.

You mentioned about the English translation of the Quran. Quran is at its best in Arabic. We kept that unchanged for last 1400 years. The translations in all other languges is just an opening to the original Quran. Please note that, none of the translators will claim the accuracy of the meaning. The translator doesn’t take the responsibility of wrong interpretation. If we are still using the translation, it is up us, to learn from the translation, or to learn from the arabic Quran or to learn from scholar directly. You can choose the way you want to learn Quran. Were you ever had an intention to learn Quran?

When you noticed those discrepencies in Quran -before or after conversion?

When you noticed those discrepencies in Quran -what you did first? did you check with any scholar about it?

I think I know the Koran well enough to discover those discrepancies and capture some textual problems that bother me.

I tried asking some people who can read the Koran from its original, but they could do nothing else than come up with pretexts that lead to no solution. One of them even told me that those discrepancies will not prove anything as long as Muslims satisfy themselves with reasons that will make little - if any - sense to those reading the Koran objectively.

I know that no translation of the Koran is considered ultimate authority for the textual interpretation and/or criticism, but this does not mean the Islamic scripture is cryptic or only Arabs can understand it. If that were the case, all Muslims in the world today would be able to speak Arabic as their second language. More, I can personally read the Koran in its original language and evaluate the translation by means of comparative readings of words & phrases recurring in various surahs. I also have few friends whose mother tongue is Arabic and whom I can consult when I face a difficulty or challenge.

I discovered the discrepancies after my conversion because before I had the idea that the Koran was perfect.

Salaam,
Angelos N.

 

[Booklover]

It is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for Muslims to see that the different number of surahs in the challenge is a real problem for Islam because it proves Allah cannot be divine. Skirting around the issue with apologetics will not make the problem go away because the question remains, why would a divine supreme deity change his challenge willy-nilly? Why alter the challenge from 1 to 10 surahs unless the initial challenge had been met. One would have thought a supreme all-powerful deity would be at least consistent. Ooppss I forgot Allah is anything but consistent. One would have thought a supreme all-powerful deity would have some foresight. Oopps I forgot Allah had no foresight with all the situational verses he had to make.

Chau,
Cid

Why would he even issue the challenge in the first place!

Ex-Muslim Abul Kasem has this to say about it in a tongue in cheek way.

news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=213

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

Question:65

In Sura 2:23 Allah challenges anyone to produce a sura like it. No one can write a sura like the suras of the Quran, so poetic and beautiful.

The claim that the Quran is unique and no one can produce anything like it is a logical fallacy.
All books are unique. Each person is different and unique. You can’t find two people alike. No two finger prints are alike, no two voices are alike, no two minds are alike, etc. No one can think and write in the exact same way that I do just as no one can think and write in the exact same way that you do. Of course many people can write much better than me, but not like it. So the challenge to produce a sura like those written by Muhammad is nothing but a fallacy.
If the challenge is to produce a sura as beautiful as those in the Quran, it is again a fallacy. Aesthetic is subjective and it cannot be a measure of the truth. If you tell me find a woman as beautiful as the one I love, this challenge can’t be met because you love only that woman. She may not be the prettiest. Because you love her, you become blind to her defects. Beauty is in the eyes of beholder.

You read the Quran as a believer and remain in awe. You can’t see any errors in it because you are in love with it. I read the same book and find many errors in it. To me it is a tedious and an ugly book. Now you can say the translations are not good but the original in Arabic is very beautiful. Let us say this is true. The fact remains that a non-Arab speaking person cannot see that beauty. It is not the fault of people for having been born non-Arabs, but because of this, they are deprived of seeing the “beauty” of the Quran as you see it. So one can conclude that God has been extremely unfair to billions of non-Arabs. They can’t see the beauty of the Quran because they do not speak Arabic and consequently will go to hell. Is this justice? To add insult to injury God chooses a language that according to Muslims is impossible to translate in any other language and therefore we can’t even see the beauty of his work in translation. Is it our fault for being born non-Arabs? Certainly not! God made us non-Arabs and thus deprived us of seeing the beauty of his word and now he wants to burn us for eternity for failing to see what he deprived us to see. What kind of justice is that? It is like I tell you something in a language that you do not understand and then punish you for not understanding what I told you. This is just absurd.

The next problem with that challenge is that it is not sincere. Look what the Quran says right after it issues that challenge:

“But if ye cannot - and of a surety ye cannot - then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith”. Qur’an 2.24

This is like someone saying give a speech as eloquent as mine and if you cannot – and of a surety you cannot –then I will shoot you. With that kind of clause who dares to talk? Forget about the punishment of Allah, Muslims will behead any person who tries to meet this challenge.

“But if ye cannot - and of a surety ye cannot - then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith”. Qur’an 2.24

We recall Saddam Hussein used to hold “elections” where 99.98% of the population used to voted for him. The elections were held open. The question was: Do you want Saddam? Yes or No? If you responded “No” then you could be killed. This Challenge of the Quran is very much similar to Saddam’s elections. In fact Muhammad was no different from Saddam. He was a narcissist, like Hitler, Saddam, Idi Amin, Kim Jong-il or Stalin. All these people created personality cult around themselves and were loved by their foolhardy subjects. Muhammad had also the claim to be the messenger of God. In this he can also be equated to Shoko Asahara, Jim Jones and David Koresh.

cont.

 

[Booklover]

cont.

However, there are some Arab-speaking non Muslims who say the Quran fails in grammar and aesthetic and they have produced a few suras to meet this challenge which is in comparison better than the suras of the Quran (not my opinion, but the opinion of Arab ex-Muslims). I can see the content of these suras are better than those of Muhammad. Please take a look and tell me why you think the Suras of the Quran are superior to these. www.islam-exposed.org
suralikeit.com/
If you can’t, the challenge is met. The burden of proof is on you.

For more on this subject read this

faithfreedom.org/faq/65.htm

 

[Khalfan]

cont.

However, there are some Arab-speaking non Muslims who say the Quran fails in grammar and aesthetic and they have produced a few suras to meet this challenge which is in comparison better than the suras of the Quran (not my opinion, but the opinion of Arab ex-Muslims). I can see the content of these suras are better than those of Muhammad. Please take a look and tell me why you think the Suras of the Quran are superior to these. www.islam-exposed.org
suralikeit.com/
If you can’t, the challenge is met. The burden of proof is on you.

For more on this subject read this

faithfreedom.org/faq/65.htm

WOULDN’T IT BE BETTER, IF WE ARE DISCUSSING THESE THINGS WITH SOME OF MUSLIM SCHOLARS IN PERSON, INSTEAD OF JUST PASSING COMMENTS?

islaminfo.com/new/qa.asp

ASK YOUR QUESTION HERE. THEY CAN HELP YOU TO UNDERSTAND QURAN AND ISLAM.

 

[Khalfan]

I think I know the Koran well enough to discover those discrepancies and capture some textual problems that bother me.

I tried asking some people who can read the Koran from its original, but they could do nothing else than come up with pretexts that lead to no solution. One of them even told me that those discrepancies will not prove anything as long as Muslims satisfy themselves with reasons that will make little - if any - sense to those reading the Koran objectively.

I know that no translation of the Koran is considered ultimate authority for the textual interpretation and/or criticism, but this does not mean the Islamic scripture is cryptic or only Arabs can understand it. If that were the case, all Muslims in the world today would be able to speak Arabic as their second language. More, I can personally read the Koran in its original language and evaluate the translation by means of comparative readings of words & phrases recurring in various surahs. I also have few friends whose mother tongue is Arabic and whom I can consult when I face a difficulty or challenge.

I discovered the discrepancies after my conversion because before I had the idea that the Koran was perfect.

Salaam,
Angelos N.

When you noticed those discrepencies in Quran -what you did first? did you check with any scholar about it?

To what you are converted?

 

[kellie]

WOULDN’T IT BE BETTER, IF WE ARE DISCUSSING THESE THINGS WITH SOME OF MUSLIM SCHOLARS IN PERSON, INSTEAD OF JUST PASSING COMMENTS?

islaminfo.com/new/qa.asp

ASK YOUR QUESTION HERE. THEY CAN HELP YOU TO UNDERSTAND QURAN AND ISLAM.

If you are a Muslim, why cant you help us understand the Quran?

 

[Angelos]

When you noticed those discrepencies in Quran -what you did first? did you check with any scholar about it?

To what you are converted?

When I noticed those discrepancies in the Koran, I first tried reading the same verses from different versions and translations, which consolidated my doubts rather than solve the problems. Finall, I consulted a Hafiz, who told me that it was a sin to have doubts about Allah’s word and suggested I should not focus on those parts that sounded problematic to me. He eventually reminded me the following verse in the Koran, politely warning me that it was impossible to comprehend some parts of the Islamic scripture:

003: 007 He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

I was a Sunni Muslim before my conversion to the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Salaam,
Angelos N.

 

[Angelos]

cont.

However, there are some Arab-speaking non Muslims who say the Quran fails in grammar and aesthetic and they have produced a few suras to meet this challenge which is in comparison better than the suras of the Quran (not my opinion, but the opinion of Arab ex-Muslims). I can see the content of these suras are better than those of Muhammad. Please take a look and tell me why you think the Suras of the Quran are superior to these. www.islam-exposed.org
suralikeit.com/
If you can’t, the challenge is met. The burden of proof is on you.

For more on this subject read this

faithfreedom.org/faq/65.htm

Booklover, thanks for those links. I had heard about this new Furqan in the news long ago, but did not know they put it on a website. Honestly, I somehow like this Furqan better

I regard this book as your present to me for the 13th anniversary of my conversion (15 March 1994)

Peace to you,
Angelos N.

 

[Booklover]

Booklover, thanks for those links. I had heard about this new Furqan in the news long ago, but did not know they put it on a website. Honestly, I somehow like this Furqan better

I regard this book as your present to me for the 13th anniversary of my conversion (15 March 1994)

Peace to you,
Angelos N.

Congratulations, Angelos, on your conversion’s anniversary! I’m so glad you liked the links! Great! You made my day!

Peace to you too,

Vickie