Nuns being brides of christ?

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Maybe the people who seem to be so rattled by the bride of Christ language should take it up with the saints who have used it. Like St. Clare, St. Catherine of Sienna, St. Therese, St. Teresa of Avila and even Including St. John of the Cross: Carmelite, male and religious. Or maybe they could call the Sisters of Mary Mother of the Eucharist or Thomas Dubay and tell them they are wrong. Maybe it would be better to say, “This analogy doesn’t work for me but it has for many of holy saints throughout the ages and does still today for many…” so “Good for them!” You don’t like the analogy, but a lot of us do.
 
Maybe the people who seem to be so rattled by the bride of Christ language should take it up with the saints who have used it. Like St. Clare, St. Catherine of Sienna, St. Therese, St. Teresa of Avila and even Including St. John of the Cross: Carmelite, male and religious. Or maybe they could call the Sisters of Mary Mother of the Eucharist or Thomas Dubay and tell them they are wrong. Maybe it would be better to say, “This analogy doesn’t work for me but it has for many of holy saints throughout the ages and does still today for many…” so “Good for them!” You don’t like the analogy, but a lot of us do.
So no answers for my question?

Saints are not infallible. Yes their writings are good to read and helpful for some, but not all.

It is also easy to say that they use this term but I think it needs to be taken in context with their whole writing.

I have not said that the analogy does not work for some, it just seems that some wish to push this analogy to a place that it does not belong.
 
So no answers for my question?

Saints are not infallible. Yes their writings are good to read and helpful for some, but not all.

It is also easy to say that they use this term but I think it needs to be taken in context with their whole writing.

I have not said that the analogy does not work for some, it just seems that some wish to push this analogy to a place that it does not belong.
Please just ignore this post.

Let us just stand with, the analogy works for some but not others.

It does not work for me in any way as I am not called to marriage and to try and fit my vocation in anyway into martial language does not work.

I also believe that the focus on the “bride of Christ” analogy for sisters is done so to the detriment of the vocation of brother. No one really understands that vocation today and I believe part of it is the over focus on such analogies of religious life.
 
Peace to you, Brother David. I am sure that it must be frustrating to find that your vocation is not well understood- but thank you for responding to God’s Call!
 
In post #17 I showed how St. Francis tried to fix the problem, but everyone seemed to ignore it. I’m not sure why, because Francis made the metaphor work for both his brothers and sisters.

Those who are brothers have to wonder on these posts if Catholic lay people, not only understand the idea of a consecrated man, but even want them around. There seems to be almost an effor to ignore these men, especially when they expalin that there is no difference between them and a woman religious. Posters seem to make little or no effort to make the connection or acknowledge it. That I find sad, because we have many holy men religious who are not priests, especially today. The numbers of brothers is increasing exponentially. But when the topic of sisters arises, the brothers ar swept to one side. That’s not fair.

I am reminded of a scolding that Archbishop Timothy Dolan recently gave to the diocesan clergy in the Archdiocese of NY. They have had a custom of praying for deacons, priests and sisters at mass. In one of his talks to the diocesan priests the Archbishop asked them how many had been educated by brothers. More than half raised their hands. The Archishop said, “Why do you forget to pray for the mothers who nursed you?” Needless to say, there were many very embarrassed priests in the audience.

On another interview with Fr. Benedict G., Fr. Benedict reminded the Archbishop that he was first and foremost a brother, second a priest. The Archbishop responded, “I’m sorry that the religious vocation of men has become the forgotten vocation, but we will try to correct that in the Archdiocese of NY.” They were discussing this very point, that when the religious life of women comes up, everyone goes gaga, but people forget that religious life, male and female, is exactly the same. Father Benedict G. was driving home this point, because the Franciscans have more non-ordained brothers than ordained-brothers and more male religous than women religious.

Those saints who write about spiritual nuptuals and make reference to the bride and Christ as bride-groom are referring to the soul, not the female religious. The espousal is between the soul and Christ, regardless of gender. That is what makes the religious man or woman a consecrated Christian, which is something that a secular man and woman cannot be, including a diocesan priest. The secular married person or diocesan priest forgoes this consecration between the soul and Christ to answer to another call. So the true bride of Christ is the soul, not the sister. This is what St. Francis tried to explain. To limit the metaphor to the woman religious is to do what Archbishop Dolan said, “to forget one specifiic vocation, the male religious brother.” I think this is what Brother David is trying to explain here. To do so, forget or brush aside, is an injustice, even though it may be innocent. But it ceases to be innocent when it is pointed out and it is still not acknowledged.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Just a question.

What about sisters? Are they also brides of Christ? Or just nuns? Is it the cloister that makes a difference? Then what about monks and hermits who are cloistered?

What about brothers? They are consecrated religious just as sisters and nuns are.
I think that nuns, sisters, brothers, - anyone who is consecrated can be considered to be ‘married’ to Christ. It’s spiritual so it makes sense. Just look at the language used by the Saints, and not only cloistered nuns but also St John of the Cross and others.

And priests are ‘married’ to the Church, because Christ is the High Priest.

That’s my opinion…
 
I think that nuns, sisters, brothers, - anyone who is consecrated can be considered to be ‘married’ to Christ. It’s spiritual so it makes sense. Just look at the language used by the Saints, and not only cloistered nuns but also St John of the Cross and others.

And priests are ‘married’ to the Church, because Christ is the High Priest.

That’s my opinion…
So married priests are in two marriages? The married to the Church idea does not work well in the Eastern Church where the norm is for the secular priest to be married.

As for the rest, I believe it is a romantic idea that was popular when the Saints were alive and writing. It does not work today.

That’s my opinion.
 
So married priests are in two marriages? The married to the Church idea does not work well in the Eastern Church where the norm is for the secular priest to be married.
the marriage to the Church is spiritual… Christ is the High Priest and the Church is the Bride, priests symbolize that reality
As for the rest, I believe it is a romantic idea that was popular when the Saints were alive and writing. It does not work today.
That’s my opinion.
I’ve met nuns who consider themselves to be brides of Christ. I think it’s perfectly applicable today… I dont see what it’s different today 🙂 In any case, I like the idea and even if it’s a sentiment, it’s a worthy one
 
the marriage to the Church is spiritual… Christ is the High Priest and the Church is the Bride, priests symbolize that reality
But the High Priests do not marry the church, so where does the symbolism come from?

I have similar problems with the idea of the religious as spouse of Christ. Marriage is characterised by the rearing of children, the sharing of goods and companionship, physical intimacy and a sharing of tasks.

With that said, I agree with your conclusion:
I like the idea and even if it’s a sentiment, it’s a worthy one
I think as a sentiment, its harmless, and may even be helpful to some people. But what is sentimental does not necessarily translate into useful theology, and the insistence of some people - typcially secular people, interestingly enough - that a spousal relationship between religious and God is normative overstretches the bounds of sentiment, and becomes rather dictatorial. At best, the image doesn’t work for everyone, and at worst, it creates some theological and pastoral anomalies by comparing peas and apples.

I don’t think it hurts to ask ourselves why such an idea is so important, particularly when we’re claiming that its important for other people and not us.
 
Those who are brothers have to wonder on these posts if Catholic lay people, not only understand the idea of a consecrated man, but even want them around. There seems to be almost an effor to ignore these men, especially when they expalin that there is no difference between them and a woman religious. Posters seem to make little or no effort to make the connection or acknowledge it. That I find sad, because we have many holy men religious who are not priests, especially today. The numbers of brothers is increasing exponentially. But when the topic of sisters arises, the brothers ar swept to one side. That’s not fair.
I was ignorant of the role of brothers and consecrated religious in general until you educated me in another thread Brother JR. I used to think that all priests had taken the vows of chastity, poverty and obedience. I also thought it was strange that brothers did not “go all the way” and become priests. This is because I did not understand that there could be two distinct callings to religious life and to Holy Orders. Please don’t get frustrated with us laity. Disarming ignorance is a tough job. Personally Brother JR, I have learned a lot from your posts.

I can also see how the “bride of Christ” analogy can seem awkward to male religious. I agree with the consensus that analogies are limited but sometimes useful. I personally wouldn’t discourage a sister from calling herself a bride of Christ (if it helps her spirituality), but would recognize the limitation in the back of my mind.
 
I also wanted to add that I used to live in Houston, Texas. Down in the South, it is still mission territory in a sense. In the South, it was more common to see religious orders running the local parishes then diocesan priests (at least this was my experience). As a result, it really blurred the lines between the roles of religious life and parish life.
 
But the High Priests do not marry the church, so where does the symbolism come from?
there is only one High Priest, Jesus Christ, and He is the Bridegroom and the Church is the Bride…
I have similar problems with the idea of the religious as spouse of Christ. Marriage is characterised by the rearing of children, the sharing of goods and companionship, physical intimacy and a sharing of tasks.
I think that only refers to human marriage… spiritually marriage, like a religious being the spouse of Christ, refers to the total giving of self
With that said, I agree with your conclusion:
I think as a sentiment, its harmless, and may even be helpful to some people. But what is sentimental does not necessarily translate into useful theology, and the insistence of some people - typcially secular people, interestingly enough - that a spousal relationship between religious and God is normative overstretches the bounds of sentiment, and becomes rather dictatorial. At best, the image doesn’t work for everyone, and at worst, it creates some theological and pastoral anomalies by comparing peas and apples.
I don’t think it hurts to ask ourselves why such an idea is so important, particularly when we’re claiming that its important for other people and not us.
what do you mean by dictatorial?

I tend to see it as something mystical, or devotional

God bless
 
there is only one High Priest, Jesus Christ, and He is the Bridegroom and the Church is the Bride…
My point (sadly unclear, obviously 😦 ) was that by this usage the metaphor is sufficiently stretched that it seems to me to be unrepresentative of anything -
I think that only refers to human marriage… spiritually marriage, like a religious being the spouse of Christ, refers to the total giving of self
  • as also in this case: if a spiritual marriage is so different to other marriages, how is the comparison useful? It sounds like the word is simply being used because it implies closeness. That is not harmful, perhaps, but it is open to misinterpretation, as per -
what do you mean by dictatorial?
  • in several threads I’ve read on CAF, some posters are insistent that all religious and priests are married to the Church or to Christ, and refuse to accept that many priests and religious don’t see it that way, and that it is not an orthodox teaching of the church that we are bound to accept.
I’m not suggesting that you are one of those people, by the way. 🙂
God bless
And you too.
 
I was ignorant of the role of brothers and consecrated religious in general until you educated me in another thread Brother JR. I used to think that all priests had taken the vows of chastity, poverty and obedience. I also thought it was strange that brothers did not “go all the way” and become priests. This is because I did not understand that there could be two distinct callings to religious life and to Holy Orders. Please don’t get frustrated with us laity. Disarming ignorance is a tough job. Personally Brother JR, I have learned a lot from your posts.

I can also see how the “bride of Christ” analogy can seem awkward to male religious. I agree with the consensus that analogies are limited but sometimes useful. I personally wouldn’t discourage a sister from calling herself a bride of Christ (if it helps her spirituality), but would recognize the limitation in the back of my mind.
Thanks for your comments. By the way, give my regards to Fairfax. It’s my home town. 👍 Someday, I may get permission to go visit my family there.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
So married priests are in two marriages? The married to the Church idea does not work well in the Eastern Church where the norm is for the secular priest to be married.

As for the rest, I believe it is a romantic idea that was popular when the Saints were alive and writing. It does not work today.

That’s my opinion.
It does seem to create more confusion in the minds of the faithful (not to mention non Catholics) than it does clarify anything re the role of priests, nuns, religious. Also, if The Church is the Spouse of Christ, where does this put all the baptized who are the Church except as espoused to Christ or in other words called into Unity with Him - as in marriage where the two become one. The total giving of self to Christ and The Gospel can be effected in other ways other than through canonical religious life per se. We are all called to this total self giving - religious life is one way and this vocation is never virtue in the person per se, rather according to God’s Will and call and He provides also the Graces necessary to live the life. Sometimes living a fully Catholic life in marriage for example can be more demanding than to live out religious life and marriage may ask far greater sacrifices for Christ and His Gospel. And The Lord provides the Graces to effect such sacrifices.
I believe it is a romantic idea that was popular when the Saints were alive and writing. It does not work today.
Agree.

TS
 
Perhaps the easiest way to explain it would be to remind the reader that all of us, whether consecrated or not, are destined for this bridal union with Christ. This is what heaven is; the mystical marriage between Christ and the Church. Thus, the consecrated soul is merely one step closer to this heavenly reality. This is why the religious life is considered by the Church to be the superior calling, because it is a life that more closely resembles heaven.

We have to remember that marriage was designed by God to be only a foreshadow of our ultimate destiny. Marriage is a means to help mankind better understand God. In marriage, the family becomes a domestic church. And in this way, grows to a deeper love and understanding of the Trinitarian nature of God and His relationship with His creatures.

This topic may be confusing to some, because it is difficult for our minds to understand such great mysteries. I do not claim to understand it myself. But this marital relationship between the consecrated person and Christ has been part of the ordinary magisterium for many centuries. Although we do not fully understand it, we nonetheless should give some assent to this traditional understanding, and not downplay it as sentimentalism or trivialize the writings of the saints, who were able to penetrate such mysteries far deeper than we can. Even Vatican II reaffirmed the spousal relationship between a consecrated virgin and Christ.

.

.
 
Perhaps the easiest way to explain it would be to remind the reader that all of us, whether consecrated or not, are destined for this bridal union with Christ. This is what heaven is; the mystical marriage between Christ and the Church. Thus, the consecrated soul is merely one step closer to this heavenly reality. This is why the religious life is considered by the Church to be the superior calling, because it is a life that more closely resembles heaven.
.
Again, why the insistence on martial imagery?

Can we not grow close without the bridal language?

The vocation in life that is considered the superior calling is the actual calling that one receives from God. If one is called to the married life then that is the superior call for that person.

I believe that the Church has turned away from saying that the consecrated life or the clergy is the superior call and rightly so as it seems to create a view that any other life is inferior in someway.
 
We have to remember that marriage was designed by God to be only a foreshadow of our ultimate destiny. Marriage is a means to help mankind better understand God. In marriage, the family becomes a domestic church. And in this way, grows to a deeper love and understanding of the Trinitarian nature of God and His relationship with His creatures.
I think that is sound eschatology, in keeping with orthodox Catholic theology. However, it doesn’t address how that vocation can usefully be compared with the vocation of consecrated religious, which is by definition the exact opposite - a state in which no such primary physical relationship is present or possible, and where no comparable family milieu exists. Consecrated life is seen as a sign of the eschatological kingdom still to come, and thus is entirely inappropriate for comparison with marriage, which is a distinctly earthly vocation.
This topic may be confusing to some, because it is difficult for our minds to understand such great mysteries. .
I haven’t seen much confusion on this thread, just a number of unsupported assertions based around the dual beliefs that spousal imagery is the normative understanding of consecrated life, and that it is an accepted teaching of the Church.
But this marital relationship between the consecrated person and Christ has been part of the ordinary magisterium for many centuries. .
The ordinary magisterium does not come into play that casually - fortunately in my very humble opinion -

Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.

For matters of faith or morals to rise to the level of belonging to the deposit of faith within the ordinary magisterium, they must therefore be universally accepted, consistent with all other teachings of the church, and historically enduring from the earliest age of the church. Spousal imagery in consecrated life does not meet any of those conditions.
Although we do not fully understand it, we nonetheless should give some assent to this traditional understanding, and not downplay it as sentimentalism or trivialize the writings of the saints, who were able to penetrate such mysteries far deeper than we can.
The canonisation of an individual does not grant magisterial status to their works; and even the declaration that their works do not demonstrate error is not a statement that they have the status of authoritative teaching (let alone dogma); indeed, mystical experience is invariably relegated to private revelation. Spousal imagery is certainly not of the stature of heterodoxy or formal error; neither is it official teaching. It is indeed a sentiment, and as I said previously, in itself not harmful and no doubt of value to some people. But it is not a default understanding of consecrated life.
Even Vatican II reaffirmed the spousal relationship between a consecrated virgin and Christ.
I’m not familiar with a V2 document that makes that claim (then again, I’m not familiar with a lot of things, so I’m entirely ready to be corrected). Although some English translations of the 1983 Code of Canon Law and Vita Consecrata (1996) refer to the consecrated virgin as ‘spouse’ of Christ, the original texts use different terms.

My Latin is very limited, but the canon 604 § 1 of the Code uses the term ‘desponsantur,’ which is usually translated as ‘betrothed.’ CCC 923 also uses this same word. Vita Consecrata uses ‘sponsae caelestis’ meaning ‘heavenly betrothed’.

The state of betrothal is referenced eschatologically, indicating a promise still to be fulfilled. That is a clearer image in my personal estimation, because it implies the oneness with Christ that is yet to come. That seems to me to be more expressive than imagery which compares consecration to marriage, which is a distinctly earthly rather than eschatological state. Let me be clear that (sadly!) that does not mean consecrated people are holier or more important than married people. If only it did. 😦

What is significant, I think, is that none of these documents make any statement that other forms of consecrated life are similar to such betrothal, and certainly do not use marital imagery.

By the why, why do you say:
Even Vatican II
Vatican II is in continuity with the other teachings of the church, both in the extraordinary magisterium as expressed in the dogmatic constitutions of the council, and in its summaries of the ordinary magisterium within other non-infallible documents. If it was not, Jesus was lying when he said that the gates of hell would not prevail against his church, because an ecumenical council would have taught error.

Best wishes to you, and thank you for keeping discussion of this issue friendly, because on other threads it has become more adversarial. 😉

I’ll just say once more that I don’t think spousal imagery is harmful. But it isn’t theologically sound either. As a devotional practice it is generally harmless and may indeed be very edifying, but it does not rise to the level of teaching or doctrine. Hence the freedom of religious not to embrace it.
 
In all fairness the spousal concept was introduced very early in the history of the Church. It was introduced by the Fathers when speaking about the Blessed Mother. They referred to her as the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. The Church often refers to her using that expression.

We all know that Mary was sacramentally married to Joseph. There is no question about this or the validity of the sacrament. Both were of the same faith. They entered into the marriage without impediments. They consented to the marriage. Therefore, according to sacramental theology, it was a sacramental marriage.

Yet, she has been referred to as the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.

Granted, this is not a dogma. But it is a form of speech that conveys a truth. We must be careful when we argue against metaphors and allegories. They are that, but they are helpful in understanding truths.

While the Catholic Church does not say that religious and clerics are superior to secular lay people, she does say

945 Already destined for him through Baptism, the person who surrenders himself to the God he loves above all else thereby consecrates himself more intimately to God’s service and to the good of the whole Church.

I believe it is the “more intimately” that gets translated into “better than.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Important points raised to my mind in two separate posts:
ByzCath
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6310735&postcount=37

The vocation in life that is considered the superior calling is the actual calling that one receives from God. If one is called to the married life then that is the superior call for that person.
I believe that the use of the word “superior” is misunderstood. Individually speaking, nothing is more superior (as pointed out above) than God’s Will for an individual person. Absolutely nothing is superior to that.
On the other hand and collectively speaking, the priesthood and religious life is ‘superior’ to the lay state because it is structured to serve The Kingdom directly. Be this as it may, it is not to state that a person in the lay state cannot (including in marriage) direct their entire life and way of life to serving The Kingdom and arrive at perhaps a far higher level of sanctity than a person for example in the priesthood or religious life.
But by using the word “superior” in connection with the priesthood and religious life and because the use of the word is misunderstood, it rather leaves in the minds of many of the faithful, if not even most of them, that the lay state is inferior to the priesthood or religious life. Certainly, the call and vocation to the priesthood is the most noble of calls and that of major accountability and responsibility and in a lesser way the religious life - if one considers them in isolation and on a collective basis, while it remains true that nothing is superior to God’s Will for a particular person on a personal and invidivual basis.

The other post that caught my eye is :
JReducation
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6311650&postcount=39

While the Catholic Church does not say that religious and clerics are superior to secular lay people, she does say

945 Already destined for him through Baptism, the person who surrenders himself to the God he loves above all else thereby consecrates himself more intimately to God’s service and to the good of the whole Church.

I believe it is the “more intimately” that gets translated into “better than.”
The above, of course, is very true – just as it is true for that baptized person who while neither embracing the priesthood nor religious life nonetheless consecrates himself/herself totally to God, The Church and The Gospel. It all depends on where God may call the person. A person outside of the priesthood and religious life may rise to as high or even higher level of holiness than those within these states of life.

I have problems even with"better than" simply because for example it leaves out in the cold and almost as second class citizens those who have perhaps from birth impediments to both religious life and the priesthood. Are they then excluded by God from the 'superior ’ and ‘better than’ states of life? and if ‘superior’ and ‘better than’ can apply then I think they are indeed second class citizens in The Church excluded by canonical impediments to the ‘superior’ and ‘better than’. This is why I think these terms are perhaps dangerous - although I realize that this may be too strong a word although if I think it through, perhaps not.

In this day and age with our shortage of religious vocations and those to the priesthood, today as never before perhaps, the laity has a very important role in The Church as leaven in society. Especially with what priests and religious we do have needing to undertake important spiritual ministries within The Church. Also, lay people have a greater freedom of movement and expression in the world I think. Society and even Catholics do place on our priests and religious certain standards that amount to a stereotypical behaviour expected, even demanded. Lay people do not have these restrictions and not having them, do have much more freedom of expression in serving The Church and The Gospel as a particular need may be presented.

The priesthood and religious life are public witnesses to society, while the lay state of life is very often a more hidden witness or leaven. Both have very important roles to play - very important. It is not a question finally of what role I should want to play in the scheme of things, but ideally to where God is calling me and calling me to a role and to a personal and unique holiness. There is no need for fear at all that if I am called to the one, I neglect the other - for it is all God’s Work and"The Gates of Hell shall not prevail". This is our trustful confidence and Faith.

Our personal aim is neither good, better, nor best (loosely speaking) - nor superior nor better than. Rather it is to personal holiness and Union with Christ wherever we may be called to whatever i.e. God’s Will. This is what needs underscoring to my mind and the type of language that will serve it.

TS
 
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