Nuns being brides of christ?

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As I tried to explain above in post #53 (but obviously failed miserably :() canon 588 does not actually mean that religious are neither clerical or lay in the sense that they are a separate category; it means that religious can be either clerical or lay. So in this usage, ‘neither’ is intended positively, as in neither state is excluded.
Br Mike,
I thought of this but the problem is that canon 588 uses the words “neither/nor” which precludes them both.

I would be interested in knowing what the actual Latin words that are used and what other possible translations they may have.
 
Br Mike,
I thought of this but the problem is that canon 588 uses the words “neither/nor” which precludes them both.

I would be interested in knowing what the actual Latin words that are used and what other possible translations they may have.
Can. 588 — § 1. Status vitae consecratae, suapte natura, non est nec clericalis nec laicalis.

The defined meaning is that the religious state is neither inherently clerical, nor is it inherently lay. This is not because it is neither one or the other, but because it can be one or the other. Thus it is not being clerical alone or being laity alone that defines being a religious: it is having taken religious vows.

To use my oh-so unsuccessful example again: :o

Being human is neither inherently expressed in being a male homo sapiens only, nor is it inherently expressed in being a female homo sapiens only. This is not because human beings are neither one or the other, but because they can be one or the other. Thus it is not being male alone or being female alone that defines being human, it is being a member of homo sapiens.

Perhaps a better example would be if I took the wording of the canon and substituted another issue regarding ecclesiastical states;

By its very nature, the state of priesthood is neither secular nor religious.

Obviously this doesn’t mean that priests are neither secular nor religious, because they must be one or the other. It simply means that there is nothing in the nature of priesthood that ties it to one rather than the other. So also religious must be either clerical or lay, but there is nothing in the very nature of religious life that dictates that one must specifically be a cleric, or specifically a lay person.

I did say I wouldn’t post again, didn’t I? May God have mercy on me.🙂
 
Can. 588 — § 1. Status vitae consecratae, suapte natura, non est nec clericalis nec laicalis.

The defined meaning is that the religious state is neither inherently clerical, nor is it inherently lay. This is not because it is neither one or the other, but because it can be one or the other. Thus it is not being clerical alone or being laity alone that defines being a religious: it is having taken religious vows.

To use my oh-so unsuccessful example again: :o

Being human is neither inherently expressed in being a male homo sapiens only, nor is it inherently expressed in being a female homo sapiens only. This is not because human beings are neither one or the other, but because they can be one or the other. Thus it is not being male alone or being female alone that defines being human, it is being a member of homo sapiens.

Perhaps a better example would be if I took the wording of the canon and substituted another issue regarding ecclesiastical states;

By its very nature, the state of priesthood is neither secular nor religious.

Obviously this doesn’t mean that priests are neither secular nor religious, because they must be one or the other. It simply means that there is nothing in the nature of priesthood that ties it to one rather than the other. So also religious must be either clerical or lay, but there is nothing in the very nature of religious life that dictates that one must specifically be a cleric, or specifically a lay person.

I did say I wouldn’t post again, didn’t I? May God have mercy on me.🙂
Thanks, as usual, it is the quality of the translation that causes problems for me.
 
These translations are causing problems for the canonists. That’s why there is a motion on the table to DO IT AGAIN, just as we’re doing with the missal.

On another topic, you mentioned the OFM request to the Vatican regarding its clerica vs lay status. What happened with the OFM request is that there is a historical problem. When they came to the Americas as missionaries, the bishops needed priests. The Provincial Ministers at that time allowed many friars to be ordained. This shifted the number in favor of clerics. At the end of the 19th century, I can’t recall the date, Pope Leo XIII reorganized the Order of Friars Minor into three obediences:

Order of Friars Minor Observant (OFM)
Order of Friars Minor Capuchin (OFM Cap)
Order of Friars Minor Conventual (OFM Conv)

By that time, the OFM had more clerics than non-clerics (the term used in the Franciscan tradition). Historically, they appear to be an order of clerics.

The argument is that the founder did not intend for an order of clerics and that the clerics are told in the rule to be submissive to the lay brothers. Also, in Franciscan history, the order never ordained their friars. The first priest was Brother Sylvester. He was a secular priest who joined the order after being a secular priest for more than 25 years. It was not until the second generation Franciscans that the ordination of friars was authorized. Prior to that, you had to be ordained before you joined the order.

The other obediences did not have much problem revising their constitutions and declaring that all the friars are equal in rights and duties. The OFM, because of their history have had difficulty getting that statute approved by the Sacred Congregation. There is a sticky point in canon law that if you have been doing something for more than 100 years, then it is your law to follow. But they do have Provincial Ministers who are non-clerics. Each time they elect one, they have to submit the election to the Sacred Congregation for approval, like an indult. The other obediences do not have to do that.

Also, the other obediences decided to curtail the ordination of friars, because of the ministries in which the Franciscan family engages, there is no need for a large number of clerics. Look at the Franciscans of the Renewal, for example. They’re not allowed to work in parishes. Neither are the Franciscans of the Eternal Word, Franciscans of the Immaculate, Franciscans of the Primitive Observance, Francisan of Peace, Franciscans of the Eucharist, Little Brothers of St. Francis, Franciscans of Penance (my community), Franciscans of Life and others. Nor are they allowed to take on chaplaincies of hospitals. All of these branches came from the Capuchin or the Conventual obediences. In other words, they were authorized by the Ministers General of those obediences. They kept their status.

It’s very interesting, because the way that the documentation is worded is not as a lay association, but as a fraternal association of equals, except for the Franciscans of the Eternal Word. They deliberately wanted to found a clerical association, because the local bishop required it. All new associations must submit to the local bishop until they become Pontifical institutes. Maybe later, they may change that, if they become Pontifical. Right now they are diocesan.

This has nothing to do with brides of Christ. But it does help the lay person reading understand that the religious life is not as black and white as it appears on the surfface. We are a very complicated little world inside the Church, with many laws and traditions.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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