Nun's music sends message against rebuke by Vatican

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manualman said:
A quibble: schism is when a group of believers severs communion with the church and attempts to form a separate church. Sometimes this actually happens (like with the Polish National Catholic Church, which oddly is an American phenomenon!). At others, the effort fails due to lack of apostolic succession (Anglicans).

But when a group rejects basic christian teaching and embaces diametrically opposed beliefs, that’s called ‘apostasy.’ Quite honestly, the nuns most in danger of leaving the church would be committing apostasy, not schism. And one could argue that some of them have committed it already. It’s not a brush that should be used to paint the entire LCWR, however. Weeds and wheat grow together throughout the church. Don’t burn the whole field down over the weeds.
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Manualman how does this relate to Protestantism in general sense? Is Protestantism in itself a form of schism? Sorry this may not belong in this thread.
 
bookgirl32 said:
Manualman how does this relate to Protestantism in general sense? Is Protestantism in itself a form of schism? Sorry this may not belong in this thread.
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It’s hard to be theologically precise and not offend people, especially since I’m a rank amatuer at theology.

Some protestants believe that the rift between them and catholics is one of schism. Anglicans who believe in apostolic succession are one sort like this. Catholics don’t believe the word applies because the catholic evaluation of what took place after Hnery VIII was that the Church of England thoroughly rejected the Sacrament of Holy Orders as Christ intended it for more than a whole generation. They eventually reformed their teachings and re-embraced the idea of Holy Orders as a Sacrament, but not until all their valid bishops had died off. You can’t have a true local church (catholic theological definition) unless you have bishops with valid Holy Orders. Unfortunately, the best precise definition for what the protestant reformers did when they broke from Rome and changed certain doctrines is heresy, not schism. I say unfortunately because it’s such an incendiary word. That said, protestants today can’t be described as heretics because they aren’t the ones who established the rift. They inherited it and don’t in good conscience know there is more to ‘church’ than they’ve been taught.

There is a schism between catholics and Eastern Orthodox, another between catholics and the SSPX (which they deny, but it meets the definition). Protestant churches don’t really meet the catholic definition of the word ‘church’. In precise terms they are called protestant ecclesial communities or some other polite term besides church. The individual people generally ARE members of the Church via their baptisms, but their associations at the local level aren’t churches.

It’s complex and confusing stuff. In regards to dissident nuns, it’s one thing to simply be angry about mandatory priestly celibacy. If that were the only issue and they grouped together with a rogue bishop to form their own ‘church’ it could theoretically be just a schism rather than apostasy. But in real life a nun that far down the road of dissent generally also has loose views on sexual morality (fornication, homosexual unions, divorce, etc), utilitarian approaches to the dignity of the human person (abortion, embryonic stem cell research, euthanasia) and so on. When you reach the point of defining bad as good, it really isn’t schism anymore, it’s apostasy.
 
manualman said:
It’s hard to be theologically precise and not offend people, especially since I’m a rank amatuer at theology.

Some protestants believe that the rift between them and catholics is one of schism. Anglicans who believe in apostolic succession are one sort like this. Catholics don’t believe the word applies because the catholic evaluation of what took place after Hnery VIII was that the Church of England thoroughly rejected the Sacrament of Holy Orders as Christ intended it for more than a whole generation. They eventually reformed their teachings and re-embraced the idea of Holy Orders as a Sacrament, but not until all their valid bishops had died off. You can’t have a true local church (catholic theological definition) unless you have bishops with valid Holy Orders. Unfortunately, the best precise definition for what the protestant reformers did when they broke from Rome and changed certain doctrines is heresy, not schism. I say unfortunately because it’s such an incendiary word. That said, protestants today can’t be described as heretics because they aren’t the ones who established the rift. They inherited it and don’t in good conscience know there is more to ‘church’ than they’ve been taught.

There is a schism between catholics and Eastern Orthodox, another between catholics and the SSPX (which they deny, but it meets the definition). Protestant churches don’t really meet the catholic definition of the word ‘church’. In precise terms they are called protestant ecclesial communities or some other polite term besides church. The individual people generally ARE members of the Church via their baptisms, but their associations at the local level aren’t churches.

It’s complex and confusing stuff. In regards to dissident nuns, it’s one thing to simply be angry about mandatory priestly celibacy. If that were the only issue and they grouped together with a rogue bishop to form their own ‘church’ it could theoretically be just a schism rather than apostasy. But in real life a nun that far down the road of dissent generally also has loose views on sexual morality (fornication, homosexual unions, divorce, etc), utilitarian approaches to the dignity of the human person (abortion, embryonic stem cell research, euthanasia) and so on. When you reach the point of defining bad as good, it really isn’t schism anymore, it’s apostasy.
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No actually that helped. I find it very interesting. Would heresy and apostasy be the same thing, or just related terms? The way I understand it the nuns rebelling/not complying risk apostasy at an individual level whereas the order refusing the reforms risks what, being shut down? Is there a more theologically correct term for that?
 
bookgirl32 said:
No actually that helped. I find it very interesting. Would heresy and apostasy be the same thing, or just related terms? The way I understand it the nuns rebelling/not complying risk apostasy at an individual level whereas the order refusing the reforms risks what, being shut down? Is there a more theologically correct term for that?
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I found this that answers better than I can. ewtn.com/expert/answers/heresy_schism_apostasy.htm

I’m sure there is a word for an order that is punished in its entirety for rebellion, “suppressed” perhaps? Did I mention my amatuer status at this? 😉
 
manualman said:
I found this that answers better than I can. ewtn.com/expert/answers/heresy_schism_apostasy.htm

I’m sure there is a word for an order that is punished in its entirety for rebellion, “suppressed” perhaps? Did I mention my amatuer status at this? 😉
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Ha, amatuer or no you understand the difference and are good at explaining it. I’m probably on the verge of getting the post moved though so I’ll just go read the EWTN article.
 
Seeker1961 said:
Have you listened to ALL her music or just the one song? She’s been writing music for quite some time.

I loved the video for that song, looking at all the Sisters who are out there every day actually living the Gospel-caring for the sick, feeding the poor, visiting the imprisoned. It was a good reminder of all the Sisters that taught me, made me a Catholic and brought me back to the Church-despite the attitudes I’ve received from my fellow Catholics.

I’m not surprised that they wouldn’t be popular here though-but luckily they don’t answer to any of us, only to God.
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And boy are they going to have to answer a lot to Him.
 
Seeker1961 said:
I loved the video for that song, looking at all the Sisters who are out there every day actually living the Gospel-caring for the sick, feeding the poor, visiting the imprisoned. It was a good reminder of all the Sisters that taught me, made me a Catholic and brought me back to the Church-despite the attitudes I’ve received from my fellow Catholics.
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And along with feeding the poor, many have left the Church behind with its dogma and creed because it conflicts with their modernist agenda. The Holy Father spoke of this in his Motu Proprio just recently issued regarding charitable organizations. His words were to the effect that the formation of heart must testify to a faith which works through charity. He also reaffirmed words of the CDF from long ago which warned that the “poor” need more than material goods. Has it been an abandoned belief and self-made religion that allows them to embrace doctrinal aberrations or be escorts for Planned Parenthood?
 
Tigg said:
And along with feeding the poor, many have left the Church behind with its dogma and creed because it conflicts with their modernist agenda. The Holy Father spoke of this in his Motu Proprio just recently issued regarding charitable organizations. His words were to the effect that the formation of heart must testify to a faith which works through charity. He also reaffirmed words of the CDF from long ago which warned that the “poor” need more than material goods. Has it been an abandoned belief and self-made religion that allows them to embrace doctrinal aberrations or be escorts for Planned Parenthood?
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Good post.
 
NeedsMercy said:
I believe that Sr. Laurie Brink in her lecture described each of four “directions”. She then declares her preferred “direction” as being #4 "Reconciliation for the Sake of Mission”. Sister described sojourning but does not espouse it. I do not think that she needs to be “reeled in” based on this lecture.
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It’s not just me who thinks they need to be reeled in, it’s the The Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith who ordered doctrinal assessment of LCWR. Keep in mind that it’s the LCWR leadership that’s in question. And here is some of their findings;
**Addresses at the LCWR Assemblies. ** Addresses given during LCWR annual Assemblies manifest problematic statements and serious theological, even doctrinal errors. The Cardinal offered as an example specific passages of Sr. Laurie Brink’s address about some Religious “moving beyond the Church” or even beyond Jesus. This is a challenge not only to core Catholic beliefs; such a rejection of faith is also a serious source of scandal and is incompatible with religious life. Such unacceptable positions routinely go unchallenged by the LCWR, which should provide resources for member Congregations to foster an ecclesial vision of religious life, thus helping to correct an erroneous vision of the Catholic faith as an important exercise of charity. Some might see in Sr. Brink’s analysis a phenomenological snapshot of religious life today. But Pastors of the Church should also see in it a cry for help.
**Policies of Corporate Dissent. ** The Cardinal spoke of this issue in reference to letters the CDF received from “Leadership Teams” of various Congregations, among them LCWR Officers, protesting the Holy See’s actions regarding the question of women’s ordination and of a correct pastoral approach to ministry to homosexual persons, e.g. letters about New Ways Ministry’s conferences. The terms of the letters suggest that these sisters collectively take a position not in agreement with the Church’s teaching on human sexuality. It is a serious matter when these Leadership Teams are not
providing effective leadership and example to their communities, but place themselves outside the Church’s teaching.
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Radical Feminism. The Cardinal noted a prevalence of certain radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith in some of the programs and presentations sponsored by the LCWR, including theological interpretations that risk distorting faith
in Jesus and his loving Father who sent his Son for the salvation of the world. Moreover, some commentaries on “patriarchy” distort the way in which Jesus has structured sacramental life in the Church; others even undermine the revealed doctrines of the Holy Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and the inspiration of Sacred Scripture.
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Clearly the Vatican is very concerned! And I can hardly blame them either! Here is the link to the complete document,usccb.org/about/doctrine/doctrinal-assessment-for-lcwr.cfm
 
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Mark121359 said:
It’s not just me who thinks they need to be reeled in, it’s the The Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith who ordered doctrinal assessment of LCWR. Keep in mind that it’s the LCWR leadership that’s in question. And here is some of their findings;

Clearly the Vatican is very concerned! And I can hardly blame them either! Here is the link to the complete document,usccb.org/about/doctrine/doctrinal-assessment-for-lcwr.cfm
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Please re-read what I wrote. I said that Sister Laurie Brink did not merit being “reeled in” based on her lecture. One religious, one lecture. I am not extrapolating to the LCWR or to all female religious, as you are discussing in this post.
 
%between%
NeedsMercy said:
Please re-read what I wrote. I said that Sister Laurie Brink did not merit being “reeled in” based on her lecture. One religious, one lecture. I am not extrapolating to the LCWR or to all female religious, as you are discussing in this post.
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My intention is not to single out any one particular sister on this issue. Rather. to point out that you have to agree that their are serious concerns with at least some elements of the leadership of the LCWR. Here is the bishop who led the doctrinal assessment of the Leadership Council of Women Religious and what he had to say on this matter. I personally trust his assessment on this matter!..womenofgrace.com/blog/?p=14864
 
Mark121359 said:
%between%

My intention is not to single out any one particular sister on this issue. Rather. to point out that you have to agree that their are serious concerns with at least some elements of the leadership of the LCWR. Here is the bishop who led the doctrinal assessment of the Leadership Council of Women Religious and what he had to say on this matter. I personally trust his assessment on this matter!..womenofgrace.com/blog/?p=14864
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Thank you for clarifying.
 
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