Nuns Not Allowed to Practice Medicine by 'Vatican'

[LiveCatholic]

So, some of you may remember the short-haired, Lebanese Sister of Mercy, Agnes Mary Mansour. I was reading her Wikipedia article and it stated:

She entered Georgetown University and earned a doctorate in Biochemistry in 1964. Regarding a harmful side effect of the use of chloroquine in the treatment of malaria, dangerous to the eyes, she co-authored The Ocular Deposition of Chloroquine, with Howard Bernstein, Nathan Zvaifler and Martin Rubin. The Vatican did not allow nuns to practice medicine at this time or Mansour would have become a medical doctor.

Is this true? Did the ‘Vatican’ not allow religious sisters (she wasn’t a nun, so the statement includes at least one misnomer) during this period?

Thanks for the info, those in the know.

 

[LayingHands]

So, some of you may remember the short-haired, Lebanese Sister of Mercy, Agnes Mary Mansour. I was reading her Wikipedia article and it stated:

Is this true? Did the ‘Vatican’ not allow religious sisters (she wasn’t a nun, so the statement includes at least one misnomer) during this period?

Thanks for the info, those in the know.

I don’t know…they were excellent nurses in the late 60’s. My Godmother was in a convent and actually passed to Our Lord, while under their care. She was very old, but Oh, how wonderful the convent nursing rooms and convent atmosphere…peaceful, singing birds, wind blowing quietly, skirts swishing up and down the halls, the sweetest air…there must have been a doctor, however, I only saw the Brides of GOD.

 

[Petergee]

So, some of you may remember the short-haired, Lebanese Sister of Mercy, Agnes Mary Mansour. I was reading her Wikipedia article and it stated:

Is this true? Did the ‘Vatican’ not allow religious sisters (she wasn’t a nun, so the statement includes at least one misnomer) during this period?

No that’s typical anti-Catholic nonsense.

Do not believe anything said about the Church from Wikipedia unless you have at least confirmed it elsewhere.

The Holy See has never placed any restriction on which (moral!) occupations religious sisters may follow. Probably not many religious sisters are/were doctors because a sister’s occupation has to be in accordance with the aims and mission of her order and community. Also training to be a doctor is very expensive and maybe many religious communities could not afford it.

Before the 1960s it was very rare for any woman of any religion to be a doctor. This was nothing to do with any rules of the Church.

By the way what is the relevance of you mentioning her ethnicity and the length of her hair?

 

[LiveCatholic]

No that’s typical anti-Catholic nonsense.

Do not believe anything said about the Church from Wikipedia unless you have at least confirmed it elsewhere.

The Holy See has never placed any restriction on which (moral!) occupations religious sisters may follow. Probably not many religious sisters are/were doctors because a sister’s occupation has to be in accordance with the aims and mission of her order and community. Also training to be a doctor is very expensive and maybe many religious communities could not afford it.

Before the 1960s it was very rare for any woman of any religion to be a doctor. This was nothing to do with any rules of the Church.

The source for the Wiki article is a website for the Michigan Women’s Hall of Fame–which actually gets right Mansour’s occupation as a sister rather than nun.

Its funny, because ‘the Vatican’ is kind of a broad term, and the religious sisters have always operated with considerable independence. If you substituted ‘the Man’ it would fit seamlessly.

By the way what is the relevance of you mentioning her ethnicity and the length of her hair?

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A bit of a joke for people who read between them.

 

[LilyM]

True - my sister’s mother-in-law was prevented from studying medicine - not sure whether it was for financial reasons or social pressures or both.

And there are professions that many religious would find difficult to combine with the charism of their order. One example being law (apart from Canon Law). I only know one example - an Australian Jesuit, Fr Frank Brennan, of a religious who has even been permitted to study law, let alone practice.

Having said that, he has found a great vocation as a kick-butt human rights lawyer and advocate, so good on the Jesuits for recognizing and fostering his talent.

No that’s typical anti-Catholic nonsense.

Do not believe anything said about the Church from Wikipedia unless you have at least confirmed it elsewhere.

The Holy See has never placed any restriction on which (moral!) occupations religious sisters may follow. Probably not many religious sisters are/were doctors because a sister’s occupation has to be in accordance with the aims and mission of her order and community. Also training to be a doctor is very expensive and maybe many religious communities could not afford it.

Before the 1960s it was very rare for any woman of any religion to be a doctor. This was nothing to do with any rules of the Church.

By the way what is the relevance of you mentioning her ethnicity and the length of her hair?

 

[Petergee]

The source for the Wiki article is a website for the Michigan Women’s Hall of Fame–which actually gets right Mansour’s occupation as a sister rather than nun.

Its funny, because ‘the Vatican’ is kind of a broad term, and the religious sisters have always operated with considerable independence. If you substituted ‘the Man’ it would fit seamlessly.

Yes, and having read her later life story it wouldn’t surprise me if the Hall of Fame got that claim from Mansour herself, trying to retrospectively portray herself as some sort of lifelong victim of “bullying” by the Church.

A bit of a joke for people who read between them.

Ok but I must be thick then. It’s usual for nuns and religious sisters to have short hair.

 

[Elvis_Guy]

Wiki…I was shown a paper by friend…an Associate professor at the UT campus here…on why the Majority of Colleges and Universities disallow Wiki articles…as reference…it was…A Statistics Chart…!!! Covering…200 subjects…and the stats were inaccuracies, the numbers were off the Chart …I always took Wik with a grain o salt but…WOW…it blew me AWAY…when I saw breakdowns!! floored…

 

[Petergee]

No, unfortunately it was true. There is a very interesting history on the website for the order of The Medical Missionary Sisters. C.

If you mean the Medical Mission Sisters, (I can’t find any such thing as “The Medical Missionary Sisters”) its website actually proves conclusively that the claim is false as I said. It tells us that the Foundress was, and many, apparently most, members of that religious order were and are, registered medical practitioners, including specialists. In fact the reason for founding of the order was precisely to create an order of women doctors, to treat Moslem women and girls whose husbands and fathers refused to let them be examined by a male doctor (virtually all doctors were male at that time).

 

[DexUK]

Never take anything from Wikipedia as accurate until and unless you have checked the source for the assertion as being valid and trustworthy. If something is stated as a fact and doesn’t come from a reputable source (or any source at all), it’s worthless.

 

[LiveCatholic]

The source for the Wiki article is a website for the Michigan Women’s Hall of Fame–which actually gets right Mansour’s occupation as a sister rather than nun.

Never take anything from Wikipedia as accurate until and unless you have checked the source for the assertion as being valid and trustworthy.

1. As stated above, the source was the Michigan Women’s Hall of Fame with Wiki as intermediary site.
2. This thread is being used to fact-check the source of the Wiki/Michigan Women’s site quote. Therefore, I don’t think you need to impress on me a healthy skepticism of Wikipedia, but thanks.

 

[Petergee]

1. As stated above, the source was the Michigan Women’s Hall of Fame

And no doubt Mansour gained entry to the Hall of Fame not through any of her many achievements, but solely due to the fact that she became a notoriously outspoken and defiant dissident against Catholic doctrine.

 

[LiveCatholic]

And no doubt Mansour gained entry to the Hall of Fame not through any of her many achievements, but solely due to the fact that she became a notoriously outspoken and defiant dissident against Catholic doctrine.

I’m still trying to expose this claim as what I suspect it is (BS) but there still seems to be some indecision… with some common sense (i.e., M.D. too expensive) anecdotal evidence saying it was the case, and your own post on the Medical Mission Sisters and their charism stating that it wasn’t.

However, I’m inclined to the latter, considering that the ‘M.D. being too expensive’ claim seems to lose strength because she received a science research doctorate, anyway, which is similarly expensive but with a lower yield.

 

[Petergee]

I’m still trying to expose this claim as what I suspect it is (BS) but there still seems to be some indecision… with some common sense (i.e., M.D. too expensive) anecdotal evidence saying it was the case, and your own post on the Medical Mission Sisters and their charism stating that it wasn’t.

However, I’m inclined to the latter, considering that the ‘M.D. being too expensive’ claim seems to lose strength because she received a science research doctorate, anyway, which is similarly expensive but with a lower yield.

Gee, what else do you possibly need to prove that the claim is BS?

Do you seriously think that there’s a possibilty that the Medical Mission Sisters are simply retailing an invented “history” when they detail on their website how their members have been simultaneously religious sisters and practising medical doctors since their founding several decades before “the Vatican” allegedly “did not allow nuns to practice medicine” in 1964?

 

[Dale_M]

I’m having trouble tracking down an authoritative source, but I’ve seen several books (via Google) which mention that, prior to 1936, Catholic sisters were not permitted to study medicine. The rule seemed rooted in traditional notions about female modesty and about sisters being assistants to men doing similar work.

Here is an excerpt from a 1948 Catholic Herald (UK) article:

From her headquarters at 98 Thornbury Road, Osterley. Middlesex, she sets out to give lectures to girls, not only about running hospitals in India, but also about operating as surgeons, midwives, and so on, jobs which these nuns do in mission fields. She will soon take a talkie around with her, called " Where Women Conquer." Up to 1936 religious were not allowed to engage in surgical and maternity work. Then all that was changed and women are now encouraged to prepare for such work.

archive.catholicherald.co.uk/article/13th-august-1948/5/a-nun-publicity-agent-looks-for-women-doctors

Prior to 1936, to get around that restriction, members of the Medical Mission Sisters promised to follow the Evangelical Counsels rather than take vows which would make them formally religious sisters.

If Sr. Agnes Mary Mansour was forbidden to study to be a physician, perhaps it had something to do with the Sisters of Mercy?

 

[LilyM]

I’m having trouble tracking down an authoritative source, but I’ve seen several books (via Google) which mention that, prior to 1936, Catholic sisters were not permitted to study medicine. The rule seemed rooted in traditional notions about female modesty and about sisters being assistants to men doing similar work.

Here is an excerpt from a 1948 Catholic Herald (UK) article:

archive.catholicherald.co.uk/article/13th-august-1948/5/a-nun-publicity-agent-looks-for-women-doctors

Prior to 1936, to get around that restriction, members of the Medical Mission Sisters promised to follow the Evangelical Counsels rather than take vows which would make them formally religious sisters.

If Sr. Agnes Mary Mansour was forbidden to study to be a physician, perhaps it had something to do with the Sisters of Mercy?

Interesting. AFAIK, sisters have long served as nurses in Catholic hospitals and other places. Surely they sometimes assisted male doctors, say in the operating theatre, while doing so? The Audrey Hepburn movie ‘A Nun’s Story’, shows just such a case, and it is based on the true story of a nun who began her religious life prior to 1930.

 

[Dale_M]

Interesting. AFAIK, sisters have long served as nurses in Catholic hospitals and other places. Surely they sometimes assisted male doctors, say in the operating theatre, while doing so? The Audrey Hepburn movie ‘A Nun’s Story’, shows just such a case, and it is based on the true story of a nun who began her religious life prior to 1930.

I think the prohibition may have been about studying medicine (to become a physician.) Studying nursing would have been deemed okay, perhaps because it was seen as assisting rather than leading. However, I am just guessing as to why nursing, but not medicine, was considered acceptable for religious sisters.

 

[GraceSofia]

It was true, but we have to remember that women were barred from medical schools for a long time. If they could get into medical school, then hospitals often would not give them practicing privileges. It was a different time.

I read somewhere, and now I’ll never remember where, that the Church thought it would be too great a temptation against chastity for*** priests and nuns ***to work as doctors-- so it wasn’t discrimination against women!

medicalmissionsisters-uk.org/history.html

“At that time, however, priests and sisters were forbidden by the Catholic Church to study and practice medicine and midwifery. In her 70’s, Dr McLaren travelled to Rome five times to petition for a change in this law, unaltered since 1263! It took some 25 years more, in 1936, for the Church to approve and encourage such work.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Maria_Dengel

“Mother Anna Maria Dengel, S.C.M.M., (16 March 1892-17 April 1980) was an Austrian physician, Religious Sister and missionary. She was the founder of the Medical Mission Sisters, which was among the first congregations of Religious Sisters authorized by the Roman Catholic Church to provide full medical care to the poor and needy in the overseas missions.”

Faces of Holiness
The first chapter is about Dr. Agnes McLaren.

 

[Petergee]

I’m having trouble tracking down an authoritative source, but I’ve seen several books (via Google) which mention that, prior to 1936, Catholic sisters were not permitted to study medicine. The rule seemed rooted in traditional notions about female modesty and about sisters being assistants to men doing similar work…I think the prohibition may have been about studying medicine (to become a physician.) Studying nursing would have been deemed okay, perhaps because it was seen as assisting rather than leading. However, I am just guessing as to why nursing, but not medicine, was considered acceptable for religious sisters. .

Won’t this Hollywood myth ever die? Nurses, at least in the Catholic tradition (originally all nurses were nuns) have never been doctor’s assistants but are a profession in their own right. The nurse in charge of a hospital or ward has always had the power to decide when and if any doctor is allowed to treat any patient under her care.

Here is an excerpt from a 1948 Catholic Herald (UK) article:

archive.catholicherald.co.uk/article/13th-august-1948/5/a-nun-publicity-agent-looks-for-women-doctors

Prior to 1936, to get around that restriction, members of the Medical Mission Sisters promised to follow the Evangelical Counsels rather than take vows which would make them formally religious sisters.

If Sr. Agnes Mary Mansour was forbidden to study to be a physician, perhaps it had something to do with the Sisters of Mercy?

Interesting. According to that article, prior to 1936 (when Mansour was aged 4) both nuns and monks, but** not **other religious sisters and brothers, were not allowed to specialise in surgery (or obstetrics which often involves the need to perform surgery at a moment’s notice when no other doctor may be available). There was no ban on any religious, monk or nun being a member of the **medical profession **itself.

The ban on surgery no doubt resulted from the ban on monks, nuns or priests being armed with edged weapons (swords, daggers, battle-axes etc) as to use them would involve drawing blood.

It is definitely false to claim that priests have been banned from medicine since 1263. At that time all doctors were priests. This is the very reason why medical practitioners are called "doctor’ (which means “teacher”) (and why until the mid 20th century it was traditional for a doctor to wear a black suit like a priest) but surgeons (who were laymen) are called Mr.

 

[Petergee]

The ban on surgery reflects the contempt with which the medical profession held the practice of surgery. Rightly so for until the development of aseptic surgery, anaesthetics, the germ theory of disease, antiseptics and antibiotics, blood typing etc. in the 19th-20th centuries, surgery was very frequently fatal and only done as an absolute last resort when the patient was either dying or in unbearable pain.

The medical profession made it clear that they were in no way related to the surgeons. Even the Hippocratic Oath said, “I will not cut, even for the stone.”

 

[Petergee]

yes, I do mean medical mission sisters, sorry. I was reading on their site that yes they were set up to treat the Muslin ladies, but couldn’t originally be a religious order because they were doctors.

No, it says they could be an order of religious sisters but they couldn’t be** nuns**. Apparently because nuns, monks and priests couldn’t do surgery. This was changed in 1935.