NYC Gala, Catholic mockery

[phil19034]

They did Asian culture, more specifically, Chinese a couple of years ago. There wasn’t much outrage. Probably equal to this, actually.

I think generally, there’s selective outrage for this sort of things. The 17 year old prom dress controversy kind of showed this. More people from the left (and right) actually supported her.

I agree. However, I still think there is a lot of hypocracy because a lot of the people who were “triggered” by the Asian prom dress (esp the ones who were not Asian) are at best indifferent to this.

And I’ve even read tweets by people who felt the Asian prom dress was “cultural appropriation” saying you can’t “culturally appropriate a group responsible for the majority of colonization and subjugation of the world.”

NOTE: I don’t have an issue with the Met Gala per say. It was just a gala. And many of the outfits were beautiful. I simply have an issue with the ones who took it too far, blaspheming against the Blessed Sacrament & the Blessed Mother, and the lack of response against those who took it too far by the “culture warriors” on the left.

 

[Lea101]

I saw those tweets too. They were basically saying it’s not offensive because the Church is powerful and we forced people to convert and stuff like that.

It seems convenient that their definitions always prevents them from being bigots…

 

[Monica83]

Lol it was weird how the author said that “traditional Catholics are more likely to wear the stuff from the Met Gala”. Ummm…no.

 

[ascetic]

The Gala is simply proof of Hollywood’s hypocrisy.

If anyone one did this with Islam, Judaism, Asian Culture, African Culture, Native America culture, etc; the left would be screaming “cultural appropriation,” “cultural insensitivity,” etc.

The reason they won’t do it with islam is because they’re afraid to. They know what will happen to them; just ask the staff of Charlie Hebdo. Either that or they’re doltish enough to believe America would be better off under sharia law.

 

[Lea101]

I can imagine a future theme regarding the Middle East in general though, like how they did it for China. I don’t think Islam in itself has much to do a theme on, although I could be mistaken.

 

[Wampa]

Thanks for posting the link, Edward. I’m a big fan of Douthat, so I always like seeing his stuff.

In the section of the article about Vatican II, I thought he made an interesting point about the nature of concessions which I hadn’t thought about. Insightful enough to be worth a quote, I hope:

“The secular culture welcomed the church’s Protestantization and demystification and even secularization, praised the bishops and theologians who pursued it, and then simply pocketed the concessions and ignored the religious ideas those concessions were supposed to advance.”

 

[boclucky14]

That actually baffled me slightly. I’m confused what exactly he meant by “Protestantization and demystification and even secularization” of the Church. Could you elaborate what you think he meant by that? Unless if I missed it, I didn’t see him elaborate on specific examples of how the Church has been overhauled in that manner. I definitely wouldn’t label the Catholic Church secularized, nor would I not label the Church as mystical. I definitely wouldn’t label it Protestant.

 

[Raxus]

The event itself I don’t have much issue with. The celebs who chose to mock the Church with the risque stuff they wore are simply cowards; if they’d planned to do that in terms of the fashion of Islam, say, there would have been explosions at the gala.

Good thing the Church is the Church, and not Islam.

 

[MikeInVA]

I honestly don’t mind if people wear it, I think it’s the context that matters.

Why? If the person was making some kind of racist statement it would be wrong, e.g. blackface, but otherwise why does it matter if I wear clothing from another culture? I might feel silly wearing a kilt or a toga when everyone else is wearing a suit, but I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong.

 

[Wampa]

That actually baffled me slightly. I’m confused what exactly he meant by “Protestantization and demystification and even secularization” of the Church. Could you elaborate what you think he meant by that? Unless if I missed it, I didn’t see him elaborate on specific examples of how the Church has been overhauled in that manner. I definitely wouldn’t label the Catholic Church secularized, nor would I not label the Church as mystical. I definitely wouldn’t label it Protestant.

He gives some examples two paragraphs earlier when he talks about the Church adopting the styles and habits of modern culture: “modernist and even brutalist church architecture, casual dress, guitar music, a general suburban and Protestant affect, etc.” and retiring the “old Mass above all, but also a host of customs and costumes and rituals”.

Just off the top of my head, when I read this comment I thought of the change to the vernacular, the Protestantization of the music, the Protestantization and secularization of the architecture (both inside and out), the de-emphasis on the tabernacle, the removal of altar rails and kneelers, and the like. These topics are regularly discussed in the traditional forum, so I didn’t have a hard time imagining that was what Douthat was referring to.

I would note that something becoming more Protestant, more secular and less mystical does not mean it is Protestant, secular or not mystical. It’s on a continuum. I, too, would not consider the Church any of those three things!

An illustration of this change happened to me a few weeks ago. My wife, who is in no way a traditionalist, said after Mass: “I liked the music today, but there wasn’t a single Catholic song. They were all Protestant!” Sign of the times (and of the particular parish we happened to attend that week).

 

[Lea101]

I said it earlier, because it seems as if that person would be reducing my culture to just some fancy dress/aesthetics, which already happens a lot (it gets even more annoying when these people tend to make racist comments towards the culture). Especially if that person’s only interest in my culture is simply the clothes and food (because we have good food, lol).

Cultural appreciation is best seen when you’re wearing stuff like that in the right context. Teenage girls wearing henna and native American hats in Coachella whilst smoking weed doesn’t scream appreciation, but them wearing henna at an Indian event or a cultural event would be very well received by all of us because the effort of getting to know a foreign culture is a lot more obvious. It won’t be seen as an accessory but rather an effort to blend in and show respect, if that makes sense.

 

[Arbovirus]

It would be better for us to be insulted a thousand times as stupid Christians who believe in fairytales than for them to openly commit blasphemy and mockery.

Lord forgive them, they know not what they do (hopefully).

 

[gracepoole]

I personally wouldn’t be comfortable if someone were to wear my culture’s ethnic wear to an event that has nothing to do with cultures/my culture to be honest. Especially more so if that person has never really shown any effort to learn about my culture prior to that or has said ignorant things about it. To me, it seems like they’re reducing my culture to pretty clothes/for aesthetic purposes, which is pretty common unfortunately (I’m Indian)

I’m not trying to be cheeky – but what if Greeks started to complain that Indians never acknowledge Greek influence on Indian clothing? Have Indians been culturally appropriating?

 

[Lea101]

I don’t know where you’re from but Indians seem to acknowledge it when talking about the history of the culture (BTW greeks had more influence on other aspects).

It would make for an interesting conversation, because people think appropriation is a simple concept to explain.

 

[Edward_H]

Appropriation, acknowledgement of, is not a sin.

Mocking is a grave sin.

 

[MikeInVA]

Cultural appreciation is best seen when you’re wearing stuff like that in the right context. Teenage girls wearing henna and native American hats in Coachella whilst smoking weed doesn’t scream appreciation

I’m sorry, a culture doesn’t depend on my appreciation for it. In your case the girls are demonstrating their ignorance, but I don’t see where a culture is damaged.

 

[Lea101]

Well, I didn’t say that a culture will combust the moment a white girl displays an act of ignorance, lol. I just said that I would be uncomfortable with it. I may not think highly of that person (ie I would find that person ignorant). Others may react more strongly, or not at all. Fine by me. It’s really not the end of the world to be angry over cultural appropriation or people being offended by it. It’s what it is.

 

[Arbovirus]

the moment a white girl displays an act of ignorance

Wearing a historically-inspired dress is act of ignorance? Many actual Chinese did not seem to be bothered by her wearing it based on social media. (Or did the topic shift to something else and I missed it?)

What about non-white people wearing European-inspired clothing? Like a tie.

 

[Lea101]

I’m not talking about the 17 year old/prom incident. Don’t get confused! (edit: not my culture so I genuinely don’t care about it, lol!)

 

[Arbovirus]

I’m neither white nor a girl, but the term “white girl” is often used in a negative connotation, usually by those perpetrating manufactured outrage about some perceived insult.

If the left tells us not to stereotype about swaths of people, terms like “white girl” should not be used by them to mock a large group of people who have nothing to do with cultural appropriation, and even if they did, they did not mean to mock or insult.