O.K. We're FORGIVEN - NOW WHAT?

[Exporter]

Yes…dumbspirosrero,

The effects? Lisa4 in about the 6th post, used this:

A nail is a sin. We drive the nail into some fine wood.(commiting the sin) . We get forgiveness ( we pull the nail out of the wood) So we were forgiven.

But the nail made a hole in the wood. THE HOLE in the wood happens to be the EFFECT of the sin.

{Sin has “effects”}

 

[SPOKENWORD]

’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’ http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage33/1.gif ‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’

Spokenword, your profile shows that you are NOT catholic. Exporter who started this thread is catholic. His question was relatied to CATHOLC confession. :bowdown: Perhaps you, as a non-catholic, are not fit to adress this matter in a catholic way? http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage33/19.gif

‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’ http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage12/3.gif ‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’

“Hear, my child, your father’s instruction,
and do not reject your mother’s teaching;
9for they are a fair garland for your head,
and pendants for your neck.
10My child, if sinners entice you,
do not consent” (Proverbs 1:8-10).

G.Grace

Hi Grace, I thought once catholic always catholic. You seem to forget I,m only one confession away. God Bless

 

[Salmon]

Spokenword:

Salmon, Dont you see that Christ is now the sacrafice that is offered up

Of course. How can you claim that we suffer no effects from our sinfulness because Christ has healed our separation from our Father?

Should I tell the alcoholic kicking the bottle that his DT’s are NOT related to his attachment to alcohol?

Should I tell the addict looking for a fix that his sweats are not real because Christ paid the price for our sins?

Should I tell the AIDS patient that his wasting away can’t exist because Christ has forgiven him?

To ignore the consequences of our sins by denying that they are related to sin would hamper many to find repentance.

Peace in Christ…Salmon

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Exporter:

Do we have to wait until we are in Purgatory to have the “effects of the sin” removed?:bounce:

Hi Exporter!

May be you should read something about Indulgences?
newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm

“An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins.” The Church does this not just to aid Christians, “but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity” (CCC 1478).
cin.org/users/james/files/indulgen.htm

MYTHS ABOUT INDULGENCES by James Akin
cin.org/users/james/files/myths.htm

Primer on Indulgences
catholic.com/library/Primer_on_Indulgences.asp



G.Grace

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Salmon:

Spokenword:

Of course. How can you claim that we suffer no effects from our sinfulness because Christ has healed our separation from our Father?

Should I tell the alcoholic kicking the bottle that his DT’s are NOT related to his attachment to alcohol?

Should I tell the addict looking for a fix that his sweats are not real because Christ paid the price for our sins?

Should I tell the AIDS patient that his wasting away can’t exist because Christ has forgiven him?

To ignore the consequences of our sins by denying that they are related to sin would hamper many to find repentance.

Peace in Christ…Salmon

Hi Salmon, There is a price to pay, for the consequences for sin is death. There is no sin that is going to enter into the kingdom. Thank you Jesus for saving us. God Bless

 

[jpusateri]

My 2cents,

In the scenario with a vase broken at a neighbor’s house, we are representing our relationship to God as a peer relationship. God isn’t our peer.

This leads us incorrectly into thinking of our relationship to God as a contractual or legal relationship. We are in a covenantal relationship. We are adopted sons and daughters of the Father.

If we were to place ourselves in our Father’s house where we broke a vase, as children we don’t have the wherewithal to pay it back. But after apologizing and healing the relationship, we are asked not to REPAY for the vase, but to show we are repentant. We do not make real restitution (for example by going out and doing odd jobs for money). We do things that heal the relationship. Things that perhaps are non-monetary and non-profitable, but things that show that we understand the damage done.

The Father (and any father) really just wants us to realize the damage. To “get it”. “Do you see what you’ve done?” “Go to your room and think about what you’ve done.”

You COULD perhaps pay back your father the money for the vase, but without the apology, he would still be unsatisfied. It’s the apology and the accompanying actions that SHOW the change of heart and remorse that heals.

Hope this helps.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

jpusateri:

My 2cents,

In the scenario with a vase broken at a neighbor’s house, we are representing our relationship to God as a peer relationship. God isn’t our peer.

This leads us incorrectly into thinking of our relationship to God as a contractual or legal relationship. We are in a covenantal relationship. We are adopted sons and daughters of the Father.

If we were to place ourselves in our Father’s house where we broke a vase, as children we don’t have the wherewithal to pay it back. But after apologizing and healing the relationship, we are asked not to REPAY for the vase, but to show we are repentant. We do not make real restitution (for example by going out and doing odd jobs for money). We do things that heal the relationship. Things that perhaps are non-monetary and non-profitable, but things that show that we understand the damage done.

The Father (and any father) really just wants us to realize the damage. To “get it”. “Do you see what you’ve done?” “Go to your room and think about what you’ve done.”

You COULD perhaps pay back your father the money for the vase, but without the apology, he would still be unsatisfied. It’s the apology and the accompanying actions that SHOW the change of heart and remorse that heals.

Hope this helps.

Well put brother. God Bless

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Salmon, There is a price to pay, for the consequences for sin is death. There is no sin that is going to enter into the kingdom. Thank you Jesus for saving us. God Bless

Well spoken do you believe we will be tempted to sin in heaven?If yes or no, explain why.God Bless

 

[Salmon]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Lisa,But Jesus paid the bill in full.No balance due.

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Salmon, There is a price to pay, for the consequences for sin is death.

Make up my mind… Please.

I repeat:
To ignore the consequences of our sins by denying that they are related to sin would hamper many to find repentance.

Your courtesy and consideration are appreciated.

Peace in Christ…Salmon

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Exporter has asked me to jump in here, so I will (thje expression “fools rush in…” comes to mind).

SpokenWord has answered as he has because of a particularly Protestant understanding of sin that has its origin in Martin Luther’s theology of sin. It goes something like this: Man is utterly depraved (this will feature prominently in Calvin’s thinking) and is little more than a pile of dung. When we accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior the pile of dung is covered, as if by snow. It appears pure and white. Thus, when the Father looks at us He sees only the Son (the snow) and not what lies underneath it.

There are, of course, two major flaws with the analogy. First, God knows all and sees all, so he knows what we really are. Second, Jesus never said He covered all our sins (or, in fact, that He "paid the full bill). Jesus took on the sin of the world. By His death *and *resurrection he made salvation possible. That is, He extended an offer that we have to accept.

Now, acceptance of the offer is the first step – it places us on the path of salvation. For Catholics this is baptism in which the *imago Dei *(image of God) is restored and made whole. We are, for the first time, really and truely the image of God.

Sin, however, damages that image. It’s like the windshield of a car driving through a sand storm. The sand pits the windshield making it harder and harder to see through.

Confession removes the sin. That which impaired our relationship with God is removed, but the effects remain.

Consider, for a moment, the effects of Original Sin – it weakens the will (we don’t resist sin as we might), it weakens the intellect (we’re not as smart as we think we are), and it leads to sickness and death (the wages of sin). The fact that Jesus makes redemption possible for us does not remove the effects of that sin – we will still get sick and eventually we will die.

The concept of Purgatory is a valid concept. Why? Because we will stand “before the awesome judgement seat of Christ” and justify our lives. We will, in that moment, see what we were called to and how far short of the mark we cam (“for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”).

For those who die with a severed relationship with God (what we, as Catholics, call “mortal sin”) the relationship cannot be restored after death and an eternal punishment await. The pain of Purgatory, however, may be just our own awareness of how much we have hurt God by our sin and our awareness of what it meant to us. It’s sort of the ultimiate “I might have had…” moment.

Jesus has died and risen and, thereby, conquered death. But each of us is called to follow Him to live as He lived. The Early Church firmly believed that after baptism we were to “go, and sin no more.”

Deacon Ed

 

[Gratias_Grace]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Grace, I thought once catholic always catholic. You seem to forget I,m only one confession away. God Bless

Hi again, Spokenword!

I didn’t know that you had left the catholic church. If you once were in the catholic church, you still are catholic even if you attend another church. But if you give answers to catholic questions that not are catholic, you are giving anti-catholic advice.

The sin is forgiven in the confessional. Jesus Christ has it on HIS shoulders. But why did Jesus die on that cross? Wasn’t that about redeeming man? After the sin of Adam and Eve, man should have died, -stopped to exist. Jesus won over death on the cross. All sins, old, present and future sins are on the shoulders of Jesus Christ. Man will never have to loose his life if he stays (dwells/rests) in Christ and ask for forgivenes in sorrow!

But the EFFECTS of sin still remains. Even if we are forgiven, so that we can have eternal life, the effects of sins don’t go away with the forgiving.

There are a lot of sins that will have longstanding effects. Rape is one of those sins. The destroying of the womans psycological health is one of those effects. A child without a father is another effect. The childs sorrow in longing for his father (the rapist) is also an effect of an already forgiven sins.

If I did understand Exorter right, he wanted to know if we have to wait for the cleaning in purgatory (to pay for our sins). Is there something he can do now to “clean up the mess”. There is in Indulgences!

But no one has said that the way is an easy way!



G.Grace

 

[Gratias_Grace]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Grace, I thought once catholic always catholic. You seem to forget I,m only one confession away. God Bless

Hi again, Spokenword!

I didn’t know that you had left the catholic church. If you once were in the catholic church, you still are catholic even if you attend another church. But if you give answers to catholic questions that not are catholic, you are giving anti-catholic advice.

The sin is forgiven in the confessional. Jesus Christ has it on HIS shoulders. But why did Jesus die on that cross? Wasn’t that about redeeming man? After the sin of Adam and Eve, man should have died, -stopped to exist. Jesus won over death on the cross. All sins, old, present and future sins are on the shoulders of Jesus Christ. Man will never have to loose his life if he stays (dwells/rests) in Christ and ask for forgivenes in sorrow!

But the EFFECTS of sin still remains. Even if we are forgiven, so that we can have life for ever (eternal) the effects of sins don’t go away with the forgiving.

There are a lot of sins that will have longstanding effects. Rape is one of those sins. The destroying of the womans psycological health is one of those effects. A child without a father is another effect. The childs sorrow in longing for his father (the rapist) is also an effect of an already forgiven sins.

If I did understand Exorter right, he wanted to know if we have to wait for the cleaning in purgatory (to pay for our sins). Is there something he can do now to “clean up the mess”. There is in Indulgences!

But no one has said that the way is an easy way!



G.Grace

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Salmon:

Make up my mind… Please.

I repeat:
To ignore the consequences of our sins by denying that they are related to sin would hamper many to find repentance.

Your courtesy and consideration are appreciated.

Peace in Christ…Salmon

Hi Sal,One was under the old law when there was sin offering, but today Jesus is that sin offering. Thats why you are confused. god Bless

 

[jpusateri]

Help me out, should I be worried that SPOKENWORD agrees with me? :ehh:

I don’t hold with the “protestant” understanding. Does what I said not jive with what people here believe Catholic Church teaches?

 

[Exporter]

Hi Exporter!

May be you should read something about Indulgences?
newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm

“An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins.” The Church does this not just to aid Christians, “but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity” (CCC 1478).
cin.org/users/james/files/indulgen.htm

MYTHS ABOUT INDULGENCES by James Akin
cin.org/users/james/files/myths.htm

Primer on Indulgences
catholic.com/library/Primer_on_Indulgences.asp



G.Grace

Gratias Grace, Como esta?Your two posts were very welcome. Thank You. I think it was Father Corapi on EWTN last month that got me to thinking about Purgatory in a different way. I have always known that we still have the “Effects” of sin even after forgiveness. I just read of a Nun in Italy who died at about 85 who came back (10 days after death) and told another Nun that she sinned by honoring the discipline of poverty in excess while she was alive. If an 85 year old Nun is suffering in purgatory then almost 100% of us will do the same. The NonCatholics think they will go straight to heaven. They will be rudely surprised when they wake up in Purgatory.

Indugences. When I was a young man Stations of the Cross, First Friday and others were in the fore front. You are very Correct Grace, we all should do as we used to do. Now my church rarely has the Stations of the Cross. Good post Grace.
P.S. The websites are priceless.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

jpusateri:

Help me out, should I be worried that SPOKENWORD agrees with me? :ehh:

I don’t hold with the “protestant” understanding. Does what I said not jive with what people here believe Catholic Church teaches?

Do not worry I don’t think spoken understands his own position.He equates forgiveness with getting rid of the consequences on a totally other level.We are spared from the second death(hell),that is the consequence that Jesus did away with.He did not lose his justice because he is mercifull.I do not think spoken can see the difference betwwen the two.God Bless

 

[Exporter]

Gracias Grace,

Tolerancia, gracias por la buena información. Recuerde decir sus rezos esta noche. Exportador

 

[Salmon]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Sal,One was under the old law when there was sin offering, but today Jesus is that sin offering. Thats why you are confused. god Bless

Hi, Spo. I appreciate your concern, but I am not confused in the least.

I don’t blame you for bypassing every question I asked above. The Church has always taught that sin drags us down and wreaks havoc upon our lives.

Five hundred years ago, a man claimed that we can sin as much as we desire, for their would be no penalty as long as we had faith.

That was sweet music to a great many people who fell for the lie.

2 Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

To suit their own desires…

God bless you, as well.

Peace in Christ…Salmon

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Exporter:

They will be rudely surprised when they wake up in Purgatory.

Hi Exporter!

Interstening point! I once discussed purgatory with a lutheran. He said: “The catholics have to be cleaned after death. We (lutherans) are so lucky that we don’t have to do that.”

There is not one God for the protestants and another God for catholics. It is the same God!

Protestants have to wake up and understand that or, as you say: “They will be rudely surprised when they wake up in Purgatory”.

God Bless!

G.Grace

 

[John_Henry]

jpusateri:

Help me out, should I be worried that SPOKENWORD agrees with me?

No. I was surprised that he/she did. What you said was Catholic.