O.K. We're FORGIVEN - NOW WHAT?

[SPOKENWORD]

Hi again, Spokenword!

I didn’t know that you had left the catholic church. If you once were in the catholic church, you still are catholic even if you attend another church. But if you give answers to catholic questions that not are catholic, you are giving anti-catholic advice.

The sin is forgiven in the confessional. Jesus Christ has it on HIS shoulders. But why did Jesus die on that cross? Wasn’t that about redeeming man? After the sin of Adam and Eve, man should have died, -stopped to exist. Jesus won over death on the cross. All sins, old, present and future sins are on the shoulders of Jesus Christ. Man will never have to loose his life if he stays (dwells/rests) in Christ and ask for forgivenes in sorrow!

But the EFFECTS of sin still remains. Even if we are forgiven, so that we can have eternal life, the effects of sins don’t go away with the forgiving.

There are a lot of sins that will have longstanding effects. Rape is one of those sins. The destroying of the womans psycological health is one of those effects. A child without a father is another effect. The childs sorrow in longing for his father (the rapist) is also an effect of an already forgiven sins.

If I did understand Exorter right, he wanted to know if we have to wait for the cleaning in purgatory (to pay for our sins). Is there something he can do now to “clean up the mess”. There is in Indulgences!

But no one has said that the way is an easy way!



G.Grace

Hi Grace,So what you are saying is that Jesus forgave the sin But a penalty is still due. Jesus work on the cross was then not complete. When a debt is paid ,there is no balance due.Thats what Jesus did for us. The only action our Lord requests is that we come asking for forgiveness with a repentent heart.That sin is washed clean as white as snow. Isnt it only by Gods mercy and love that this is possible. Now the penalty for unconfessed sin is death.Isnt that enough of a penalty.When Jesus forgave Mary Magdelan,He said go and sin no more ,your sins are forgiven. God Bless

 

[Deacon_Ed]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Grace,So what you are saying is that Jesus forgave the sin But a penalty is still due. Jesus work on the cross was then not complete. When a debt is paid ,there is no balance due.Thats what Jesus did for us.

It seems that St. Paul disagrees with this theology. He tells us in col 1:24:

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,… (NAB)

I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, (NKJV)

I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church. (NRSV)

What Christ did on the cross is complete in the sense that it makes salvation possible. What is not complete is our part of this process. We must be joined to His death and resurrection, and we must be active followers of Him (per St. James). But nowhere in Scripture does it say we will not suffer from sin. After all, we still die and that is, in fact, the “wages of sin.” Why would that penalty for sin remain if, as you suggest, the “debt was paid in full”?

BTW, this whole concept of “debt” was developed by St. Anselm as a way of explaining what Jesus did and why.

The only action our Lord requests is that we come asking for forgiveness with a repentent heart.That sin is washed clean as white as snow. Isnt it only by Gods mercy and love that this is possible. Now the penalty for unconfessed sin is death.Isnt that enough of a penalty.When Jesus forgave Mary Magdelan,He said go and sin no more ,your sins are forgiven. God Bless

But he didn’t say there was no residual from the sin. While it is absolutely true that when God forgives a sin He also forgets the sin – but we don’t. Because of that we remain “defective” – falling short of the glory of God. Thus, when we “see God as He is” we will suffer for we will jknow haw far short we have fallen, and how much our sins have hurt us, others, and God Himself.

Deacon Ed

 

[Exporter]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Grace,So what you are saying is that Jesus forgave the sin But a penalty is still due. Jesus work on the cross was then not complete. When a debt is paid ,there is no balance due.Thats what Jesus did for us. The only action our Lord requests is that we come asking for forgiveness with a repentent heart.That sin is washed clean as white as snow. Isnt it only by Gods mercy and love that this is possible. Now the penalty for unconfessed sin is death.Isnt that enough of a penalty.When Jesus forgave Mary Magdelan,He said go and sin no more ,your sins are forgiven. God Bless

---

Spokenword, What you write is commendable. But you get right up to the point of this thread and Stop. Your thought process seems to be limited by a strong Protestant influence.I once actually heard an itinerant Evangelical preacher preach exactly what wrote. When he got through and was leaving I asked him if he was a real preach, did he do funerals and weddings. He said,“Sometimes”.

The next thing I write is done is a friendly way, no offence intended.

Can you write about the subject of this thresd and use the terms,“effects of sin” or “wages of sin”? As I read your posts I understand that you are saying THE ARE NO WAGES OF SIN. Am I correct? You could ay there ARE NO effects of sin.

 

[Exporter]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Grace,So what you are saying is that Jesus forgave the sin But a penalty is still due. Jesus work on the cross was then not complete. When a debt is paid ,there is no balance due.Thats what Jesus did for us. The only action our Lord requests is that we come asking for forgiveness with a repentent heart.That sin is washed clean as white as snow. Isnt it only by Gods mercy and love that this is possible. Now the penalty for unconfessed sin is death.Isnt that enough of a penalty.When Jesus forgave Mary Magdelan,He said go and sin no more ,your sins are forgiven. God Bless

---

Spokenword, What you write is commendable. But you get right up to the point of this thread and Stop. Your thought process seems to be limited by a strong Protestant influence.I once actually heard an itinerant Evangelical preacher preach exactly what wrote. When he got through and was leaving I asked him if he was a real preacher, did he do funerals and weddings. He said,“Sometimes”.

The next thing I write is done is a friendly way, no offence intended.

Can you write about the subject of this thresd and use the terms,“effects of sin” or “wages of sin”? As I read your posts I understand that you are saying THE ARE NO WAGES OF SIN. Am I correct? You could say there ARE NO effects of sin.

 

[Exporter]

From a post by Deacon Ed, "But he didn’t say there was no residual from the sin. While it is absolutely true that when God forgives a sin He also forgets the sin – but we don’t. Because of that we remain “defective” – falling short of the glory of God. Thus, when we “see God as He is” we will suffer for we will jknow haw far short we have fallen, and how much our sins have hurt us, others, and God Himself.

Deacon Ed"

---

On EWTN’s Mother Angelica, a few days ago, these same words by Deacon Ed were said by Mother Angelica. That’s pretty good company, eh? She actually said the moment we die, we will see Jesus with His arms outstretched. But our awareness of our sins and our unwothiness will result in us knowing how Holy He is. And we will spend some "time’ ( if time passes in Purgatory) being purged of the “effects” of our forgiven sins.{This is my comment}-> We wouldn’t want to enter Heaven with lingering appities for sinfull habits would we? Purgatory rids us of the appitites.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Deacon Ed:

It seems that St. Paul disagrees with this theology. He tells us in col 1:24:What Christ did on the cross is complete in the sense that it makes salvation possible. What is not complete is our part of this process. We must be joined to His death and resurrection, and we must be active followers of Him (per St. James). But nowhere in Scripture does it say we will not suffer from sin. After all, we still die and that is, in fact, the “wages of sin.” Why would that penalty for sin remain if, as you suggest, the “debt was paid in full”?

BTW, this whole concept of “debt” was developed by St. Anselm as a way of explaining what Jesus did and why.

But he didn’t say there was no residual from the sin. While it is absolutely true that when God forgives a sin He also forgets the sin – but we don’t. Because of that we remain “defective” – falling short of the glory of God. Thus, when we “see God as He is” we will suffer for we will jknow haw far short we have fallen, and how much our sins have hurt us, others, and God Himself.

Deacon Ed

Hi Deacon Ed, I believe what St. Paul is saying is that we will be persecuted as Christians. We no longer are our own. We belong to Christ for we have been purchased by His Blood. We MUST be willing to lay our lives down for Christ. Yes God does forgive us of our sins and forgets.It is us that dont, forget them because many of us do not feel forgiven.But praise be to God He is mercyful and forgiving. Is there any scripture in the New Testament that tells us that we must do more than what Jesus did for us on the cross in order to repay our debt owed for the sins we committed?. God Bless.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

*****************************************************************************
Spokenword, What you write is commendable. But you get right up to the point of this thread and Stop. Your thought process seems to be limited by a strong Protestant influence.I once actually heard an itinerant Evangelical preacher preach exactly what wrote. When he got through and was leaving I asked him if he was a real preach, did he do funerals and weddings. He said,“Sometimes”.

The next thing I write is done is a friendly way, no offence intended.

Can you write about the subject of this thresd and use the terms,“effects of sin” or “wages of sin”? As I read your posts I understand that you are saying THE ARE NO WAGES OF SIN. Am I correct? You could ay there ARE NO effects of sin.

Hi Exporter, The effects of unforgiven sin is a seperation of God.The wages of sin is death. Because of Adam and Eves sin our physical bodies die. That is the penalty of sin. BUT praise God for His Son Jesus Christ who was given up sacraficially so that we as christians are free from spiritual death.Jesus became sin for us.And because of His sacrafice we will live forever with Christ. God Bless

 

[John_Henry]

SPOKENWORD:

Is there any scripture in the New Testament that tells us that we must do more than what Jesus did for us on the cross in order to repay our debt owed for the sins we committed?

I doubt it. And works out well for Catholics, because, as repeatedly stated on this thread, Catholics do not believe that Christians must do something over and beyond what Jesus did for us. STOP. Re-read that last sentence. The Catechism states:

“The Christian tradition sees in this passage [Gen. 3:9] an announcement of the “New Adam” who, because he “became obedient unto death, even death on a cross”, makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience, of Adam.” (CCC 411)

The merits of Christ’s sacrifice are superabundant (i.e., infinitely more than enough). STOP. Re-read that. There is nothing we can add to it.

BUT. Having been forgiven by God, through repentance, there still remain with us consequences of our sins. Not an eternal debt of sin, but temporal consequences. It has been pointed out to you previously that, though David was forgiven his debt of sin by God, a temporal consequence of those sins still remained. His child died. Same with Moses. He was forgiven his eternal debt of sin for striking the rock. But temporal consequences remained, such that he was not permitted to enter the Promised Land.

When we talk about temporal consequences, WE ARE NOT speaking of things for which we need forgiveness. WE HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN SUPERABUNDANTLY BY CHRIST. We are talking about things which impede our fellowship with Christ. Not sins which Christ wasn’t good enough to expiate. We are speaking of temporal consequences. To keep bringing up the fact that we are totally forgiven by Christ is completely besides the point. Everyone agrees. We aren’t talking about that.

That, having been forgiven by Christ, there remain temporal consequences for sin is established, not just by the stories of Moses and David, but also by simply looking at your life. Has Christ forgiven you of your sins? Yes. Are the CONSEQUENCES of those sins therefore completely gone? Not the sins, but the consequences? Not the eternal consequences (hell), but the temporal consequences? Are THEY therefore completely gone because you have been forgiven? No. Where are these consequences to be seen? In your and my disordered appetites. Do you always desire God’s will even when it involves suffering? I don’t. Why? Because some temporal consequences of sin are still with me. Will I one day die? Temporal consequence of sin. Do I get sick? Temporal consequence of sin. Do you disagree that death is a consequence of sin, though we have been forgiven?

Someone said it earlier. If I sleep around and catch a disease, will God forgive me totally? Yes, if I repent. Will he therefore take away my disease? No. If I look at pronography, and get addicted, will God forgive me totally? Yes, if I repent. Will he therefore necessarily take away my addiction? No. I will still long for pornography, at least at first. Why? Because my will is weakened by the sin I have committed and have been forgiven. How do I strengthen my will? How do I strengthen muscles? By exercising them. Same thing goes. I strengthen my will by exercising it. That’s where acts of penance come in. To strengthen the will against further sin, having already been totally forgiven by Christ. That’s what St. Paul is talking about in 1 Cor. 9:27. Paul was forgiven, I think we would agree. But he still did things to subdue his flesh, that he might not be disqualified from the race.

Please do not respond by saying that Christ has forgiven us all our debt. That is not the question under discussion.

 

[John_Henry]

SPOKENWORD:

Because of Adam and Eves sin our physical bodies die. That is the penalty of sin.

Physical death is therefore a consequence of sin with which you have to deal, though you have been forgiven. Therefore, not all consequences of sin are removed from the forgiven believer. What you have just admitted is the principle behind the concept of penance.

SPOKENWORD:

BUT praise God for His Son Jesus Christ who was given up sacraficially so that we as christians are free from spiritual death.Jesus became sin for us.And because of His sacrafice we will live forever with Christ. God Bless

Not a Catholic soul on this board has ever denied such a glorious truth. Praise God, indeed.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

John_Henry:

BUT. Having been forgiven by God, through repentance, there still remain with us consequences of our sins. Not an eternal debt of sin, but temporal consequences. It has been pointed out to you previously that, though David was forgiven his debt of sin by God, a temporal consequence of those sins still remained. His child died. Same with Moses. He was forgiven his eternal debt of sin for striking the rock. But temporal consequences remained, such that he was not permitted to enter the Promised Land.============================================================== Hi John, BUT the end result was that Moses did see the promised land called Heaven. It was because of what Jesus did. God Bless

 

[Vincent]

SPOKENWORD:

The effects of unforgiven sin is a seperation of God.

There’s another effect of sin: developing an unhealthy attachment to the things of this world.

It’s like getting addicted. You might only have to sin once before you become attached to something. Of course, God is more than willing to completely forgive us of our sins. But even after we’ve been forgiven, those attachments might remain in part.

Many of us can relate. An repentant and forgiven ex-drug addict might still have a little attachment to the drugs he’s forsaken. A repentant and forgiven ex-adulterer might still have a little attachment to women other than his wife. A repentant and forgiven thief might still have a little attachment to things that don’t belong to him.

Why do these disordered attachments remain in part even after we’ve been completely forgiven by Christ? Maybe our love for God and hatred for the sins we’ve committed isn’t as intense as it should be.

If, by grace, our love for God is fervent, then these attachments will melt away. We might know people—even ourselves—who’ve experienced this kind of conversion. Their repentance was such that they were completely healed of the unhealthy attachments that were a result of their sinning. Not only were they forgiven, but they were also purified of these self-inflicted punishments of being attached unhealthily to things.

But how often does that happen? Are we that willing to accept God’s grace of loving Him with such an intensity that this love engages every fiber of our being? Are we willing to accept God’s grace of hating our sins that much? If not, then we shouldn’t be surprised if some of these unhealthy attachments should remain as crosses for us to carry.

But when we pick up these crosses, we will learn to die more and more to ourselves and live for Christ. In that sense, even accepting these crosses can be seen as a grace, for God wants us to be completely whole and He will not give up until we are.

 

[John_Henry]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi John, BUT the end result was that Moses did see the promised land called Heaven. It was because of what Jesus did. God Bless

Hi Spokenword, BUT you responded by addressing something other than what my whole post was about. As I anticipated you would. My very point, which you just validated, was that Moses sinned, that he was forgiven (i.e., went to heaven), and that he nevertheless experienced consequences of that sin (i.e., didn’t get into the promised land) God Bless

 

[SPOKENWORD]

John_Henry:

Hi Spokenword, BUT you responded by addressing something other than what my whole post was about. As I anticipated you would. My very point, which you just validated, was that Moses sinned, that he was forgiven (i.e., went to heaven), and that he nevertheless experienced consequences of that sin (i.e., didn’t get into the promised land) God Bless

Hi John,BUT Moses did get into the promised land.[heaven] God Bless

 

[John_Henry]

Vincent,

You last post was money…

 

[John_Henry]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi John,BUT Moses did get into the promised land.[heaven] God Bless

You are obviously just playing around now. Or do you think my last comment reduces to Moses sinned, he was forgiven (i.e. went to heaven), but neverthless experienced the consequences of sin (i.e. not going to heaven)? Seen as that makes no sense, I conclude you aren’t interested in any real discussion.

Obviously what I was saying was, Moses sinned, Moses was forgiven (i.e. went to heaven), but Moses nevertheless experienced the consequences of sin (i.e. he didn’t make it into the physical territory with dirt and stuff that Israel had been promised he would inherit, once the Canaanites had been displaced, from which the Israelites would later be exiled, which Christ visited in the flesh, which exists to this day as the site of so much controversy in the Middle East).

 

[SPOKENWORD]

John_Henry:

You are obviously just playing around now. Or do you think my last comment reduces to Moses sinned, he was forgiven (i.e. went to heaven), but neverthless experienced the consequences of sin (i.e. not going to heaven)? Seen as that makes no sense, I conclude you aren’t interested in any real discussion.

Obviously what I was saying was, Moses sinned, Moses was forgiven (i.e. went to heaven), but Moses nevertheless experienced the consequences of sin (i.e. he didn’t make it into the physical territory with dirt and stuff that Israel had been promised he would inherit, once the Canaanites had been displaced, from which the Israelites would later be exiled, which Christ visited in the flesh, which exists to this day as the site of so much controversy in the Middle East).

Hi John, but doesn,t the same apply to us today just like Moses we who walk in sin and disobeidience to God will keep us from entering the promise land. God Bless

 

[John_Henry]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi John, but doesn,t the same apply to us today just like Moses we who walk in sin and disobeidience to God will keep us from entering the promise land. God Bless

The obfuscation continues…

 

[SPOKENWORD]

John_Henry:

The obfuscation continues…

Hi John ,Forgive me, I can be obfuse. I ran out of gas. God Bless

 

[Exporter]

The title of this thread is: “O.K. We’re Forgiven - Now What?”

Vincent in post # 49 and John Henry in post # 46 wrote to the subject of this thread in a most wonderful way.

That title is"O.K. We’re Forgiven" …“Now What”? Spokenword is having a bit of trouble getting past the word “forgiven”. The “forgiven” part is accepted, done and finished BEFORE we get to the ,“NOW WHAT?”

I think Spokenword would rather have to eat his mouse than to MOVE ON and discuss Purgatory. Why? Because he holds to the Protestant belief that when a believer dies, he walks right into heaven. There have been several posts that did a wonderful job of explaining the Catholic theology of THE REASON FOR PURGATORY. Spoken word obviously ignores this.

The title of this thread forces one to take the next step. One possible next step is to read from a Catholic source about Purgatory.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp
For these reasons I think I will pass over Spoken’s future Protestant ramblings.

 

[Gratias_Grace]

SPOKENWORD!

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Grace,So what you are saying is that Jesus forgave the sin But a penalty is still due. Jesus work on the cross was then not complete. When a debt is paid ,there is no balance due.Thats what Jesus did for us. The only action our Lord requests is that we come asking for forgiveness with a repentent heart.That sin is washed clean as white as snow. Isnt it only by Gods mercy and love that this is possible. Now the penalty for unconfessed sin is death.Isnt that enough of a penalty.When Jesus forgave Mary Magdelan,He said go and sin no more ,your sins are forgiven. God Bless

Jesu work on the cross was complete! From the first Adam we inherited the sin. As I have told you before, his sin deserved death, back to none-existance, as he was (nothing) before he was created. But God didn’t destroy him. **Instead God made His plans for saving Adams heirs from death ** (from extinction). That plan was completed when Jesus, the second Adam, defeated death on the cross.

SPOKENWORD:

When a debt is paid ,there is no balance due.Thats what Jesus did for us.

The question is what dept was paid? Adams dept, Spokenword. As the heir of Adam we do not have to fear the consequenses of eternal death, because Jesus has restored us. But we are “marked” with the "narrow urge"to sin. This “urge” we have inherited form Adam.

Jesus has given us free access to Heaven if we want to be Gods children. If the EFFECT (the consequences) was taken completely away when Jesus died on the cross, we would not been EFFECTED with sins. No one would have heard about Pride, Envy, Anger, Sloth, Greed, Gluttony, Lust or other sins. We would all have wandered around naked and happy, praising God, as Adam and Eve did in the beginning!

MY QUESTION IS (AND I WANT AN ANSWER, SPOKENWORD): CAN’T YOU SEE THAT STILL AFTER JESUS REDEEMED US WE ARE EFFECTED BY THE SINS OF OUR ANCESTORS?

SPOKENWORD:

our Lord requests is that we come asking for forgiveness with a repentent heart.That sin is washed clean as white as snow.

Yes, the sin is forgiven and washed away, but not the harm it has done to our selves and to others. Not even doing the penance afterwards takes away the effects of the sin.

Do you remember all the hurt I used in the example with the rapist? Do you think that he will ever get rid of what he has done in his thougts? Let us presume that it was his fiancée he raped. He couldn’t wait to after the wedding. We can’t blame her if she don’t want to marry him.

What shall he do than? He is forgiven, but he suffers from the consequences. Shall he suffer all his life or is there some way he can get rid of the suffering as a consequence of what he has done?

If his sorrow is real, if he starts to live in a more appropriate way in his relationship with God and others (remember God is LOVE), he will more and more want to stop sinning. When he walks home to do his pennance after confession he does so to please God, not because the priest said so. He starts at the purifying-prosess here on earth. It is how purified he is when he dies, that determines how much he has to be purified after death to be able to enter Heaven.

Remember: But nothing unclean will enter it … (Rev 21:27)

The topic that Exporter raised was not if we were forgiven (because that is knowledge of childhood), but what we can do to “speed up” the purifying-prosess when we still live on earth!

**DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT FORGVENESS IS GODS FREE GIFT TO US EVEN IF THE SIN IS MURDER, BUT THAT THE FORGIVENES IS ONLY THE “BEGINNING” OF THE PURIFYING PROSESS? **

I want to present **a flow-chart ** about sin, confession, forgivness and so on on Catholic Doctrine:

catholicbridge.com/catholic_doctrine_flow_chart.htm

Take a good look at it!

A repetition of the two questions i have asked in theis post:

**1) CAN’T YOU SEE THAT STILL AFTER JESUS REDEEMED US WE ARE EFFECTED BY THE SINS OF OUR ANCESTORS?

1. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT FORGVENESS IS GODS FREE GIFT TO US EVEN IF THE SIN IS MURDER, BUT THAT THE FORGIVENES IS ONLY THE “BEGINNING” OF THE PURIFYING PROSESS?**

G.Grace